saline solution in heated humidifier

It has probably been said, but the salt would be left behind as the vapor is actually a distilled water, the same as any evaporated water. It serves no purpose for breathing and would add to the crust build up in the humidifier.

Unfortunately with some machines that is not the case.

The theory is that the humidifier produces vapor and vapor can't hold impurities like salt in it. In actual testing some machines have a bit of turbulence that result in vapor plus mist.

I enjoy the salt air from my machine. It reminds me of sleeping on the beach and I never have to deal with congestion.

HoseCrusher wrote:Unfortunately with some machines that is not the case.

The theory is that the humidifier produces vapor and vapor can't hold impurities like salt in it. In actual testing some machines have a bit of turbulence that result in vapor plus mist.

I enjoy the salt air from my machine. It reminds me of sleeping on the beach and I never have to deal with congestion.

That's interesting, do you have a link to the testing study, or details that would enable a google search? I would have assumed the vapour makes it to the mask, but any mist that makes it out of the humidifier would quickly settle in the hose.

Here is the discussion...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=58490&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... humidifier

I read your post on the other thread and I think you are drawing a long bow, I think rooster and idamtnboy gave succinct, accurate answers I didn't read further than the first few posts and I don't have a lot to add to what they said.

Going back as far as Hippocrates, steam was used to treat these problems. The twist is that salt was added to the water and you ended up breathing salt vapor.

Salt raises the boiling point of water , so you get hotter steam, there is no salt in the steam. It's a physics thing. Salt is also added to some home vaporizers because salt increases the conductivity of water and the vaporizer works by an electrical current in the water.

To draw on these two things and then make the leap that adding salt to the warmed water, then the evaporated water vapour somehow has a salt content added to it. It doesn't make sense and why I asked for the trial you referred to. "In actual testing some machines have a bit of turbulence that result in vapor plus mist."
I don't think the link you gave me to another thread adds anything to your point. I also couldn't see any reference to a trial. Is there one?

as to sleeping near the beach

I enjoy the salt air from my machine. It reminds me of sleeping on the beach and I never have to deal with congestion.

Also the smell of the ocean is the result of dimethyl sulphide and has nothing to do with salt.

I know I'm being a bit critical and if it had a neutral outcome, I wouldn't care. However I believe advising people to add salt to their CPAP, does nothing to their treatment and may in fact cause issues with the actual humidifier metals (electrolysis can cause pin holes) and coatings. As well as the extra cleaning that would be required to remove the salt crust.

I used to have a job measuring salt content of the air on a freighter from NJ to Germany and back. You have to get 4 miles from the ocean or up before the salt disappears. Particles are easily suspended by Brownian movement. Being brought up near Cape Cod I was surprised once you got out 100 miles from coast there is no ocean smell. Saline isn't really very salty. Some salt could be picked up and it wouldn't settle out. It just wouldn't be much.

ajack wrote:I read your post on the other thread and I think you are drawing a long bow, I think rooster and idamtnboy gave succinct, accurate answers I didn't read further than the first few posts and I don't have a lot to add to what they said.

Going back as far as Hippocrates, steam was used to treat these problems. The twist is that salt was added to the water and you ended up breathing salt vapor.

Salt raises the boiling point of water , so you get hotter steam, there is no salt in the steam. It's a physics thing. Salt is also added to some home vaporizers because salt increases the conductivity of water and the vaporizer works by an electrical current in the water.

To draw on these two things and then make the leap that adding salt to the warmed water, then the evaporated water vapour somehow has a salt content added to it. It doesn't make sense and why I asked for the trial you referred to. "In actual testing some machines have a bit of turbulence that result in vapor plus mist."
I don't think the link you gave me to another thread adds anything to your point. I also couldn't see any reference to a trial. Is there one?

as to sleeping near the beach

I enjoy the salt air from my machine. It reminds me of sleeping on the beach and I never have to deal with congestion.

Also the smell of the ocean is the result of dimethyl sulphide and has nothing to do with salt.

I know I'm being a bit critical and if it had a neutral outcome, I wouldn't care. However I believe advising people to add salt to their CPAP, does nothing to their treatment and may in fact cause issues with the actual humidifier metals (electrolysis can cause pin holes) and coatings. As well as the extra cleaning that would be required to remove the salt crust.

I never stated that evaporated water contains salt ions. I said that the water vapor that comes out of my xPAP machine contains salt ions.

Pause a moment and think about the difference...

It is unfortunate that you were unable to find the time to read the whole thread. You may have discovered how the testing was done and what equipment was used. You would also have missed the challenge to duplicate the test to determine the behaviour of your own xPAP machine.

I have discussed this with the pulmonologists and respiratory therapists in my area. At first they were critical too. After conducting their own tests they came to the same conclusion that I did and that was that some salt ions are making their way down the tube from the humidifier. The safety concerns revolved around using high quality salt. Some discussions revolved around using iodized salt but no conclusions were formed. In general I avoid using iodized salt.

The general conclusion is that if a person suffers from nasal congestion and find using a saline nose spray helps, they will probably find adding a small amount of salt to their humidifier water improves their general comfort during sleep and do so safely.

I have been adding salt to my humidifier water for only a little over 6 years now. I have suffered no adverse effects.

My machine has logged a little over 17000 hours and is still using the original humidifer. I am on my 3rd humidifier tank. After using my original tank for 2 years I decided to try out the tank that came apart for cleaning. I still have my original tank. While traveling my "diswasher safe" tank ended up with the plastic ears that hold the bottom of the tank breaking and I had to replace it. After 4.5 years of use I don't believe the salt in my humidifier water had anything to do with the plastic breaking. The most likely cause of that failure was heat from the humidifier plate causing the plastic to become brittle.

I have had no scale build up, no salt crust build up, and no electrolysis damage. With that said I do clean more often than most (the humidifier tank once a week) and tend to empty and refill my tank frequently rather than simply topping off.

My approach to xPAP therapy is to make it as comfortable as possible. I use Ramp. I use EPR. And I add a little salt to my humidifier water. I also have a custom pillow. My sleep experience is very comfortable and I believe it is more effective as a result.

Could this work for you?

I have no idea. If you are a person that knocks your machine off the table each night, it is better to have your machine splashed in distilled water rather than salt water. If you have no issues with congestion and are already at the peak of comfort, trying to improve your comfort may be fruitless. If you are afraid to travel "outside the box," your anxiety will rob you of any benefit offered.

The question I haven't been able to answer is how much of a concentration of salt ions is needed to provide benefits...?

HoseCrusher wrote:I never stated that evaporated water contains salt ions. I said that the water vapor that comes out of my xPAP machine contains salt ions.

water vapor = evaporated water.

you may have more than water vapor coming from your humidifier, because water vapor can't contain salt, as it were.

The general conclusion is that if a person suffers from nasal congestion and find using a saline nose spray helps, they will probably find adding a small amount of salt to their humidifier water improves their general comfort during sleep and do so safely.

Taking two different things and trying to make it fit, are again drawing a long bow. Saline spray does contain salt and does initially help. Though I haven't googled it, I would think the salt is an irritant that increases secretion. I would think a continued application of said spray for 8 hours, would have consequences to the nasal tissues. The addition of salt to the humidifier is totally different and my reasons previously given.

It doesn't change that in your experience it has improved for you. Placebos and belief can far outweigh fact. The belief that the earth remained the center of the universe, geocentrism, remained for 450 years after it was disproven. People believe what they want to believe.

I'm glad adding salt hasn't wreaked your humidifier tank, If this was universally the case, they wouldn't tell people to use distilled water and not tap water, because of salts and minerals. Some have an aluminium alloy base and will quickly damage from electrolysis etc.

I only read the first page/few posts in detail, but I really did look for a study trial with cpap within the other pages. I didn't see one. Could you give me the direct link please. I'm happy to be shown to be wrong and why I asked for the link in the first instance. I only have schoolboy physics.

palerider wrote:

HoseCrusher wrote:I never stated that evaporated water contains salt ions. I said that the water vapor that comes out of my xPAP machine contains salt ions.

water vapor = evaporated water.

you may have more than water vapor coming from your humidifier, because water vapor can't contain salt, as it were.

Oops...

What I should have said is that the water vapor and aerosol that comes out of my machine contains salt ions.

ajack wrote:

The general conclusion is that if a person suffers from nasal congestion and find using a saline nose spray helps, they will probably find adding a small amount of salt to their humidifier water improves their general comfort during sleep and do so safely.

Taking two different things and trying to make it fit, are again drawing a long bow. Saline spray does contain salt and does initially help. Though I haven't googled it, I would think the salt is an irritant that increases secretion. I would think a continued application of said spray for 8 hours, would have consequences to the nasal tissues. The addition of salt to the humidifier is totally different and my reasons previously given.

It doesn't change that in your experience it has improved for you. Placebos and belief can far outweigh fact. The belief that the earth remained the center of the universe, geocentrism, remained for 450 years after it was disproven. People believe what they want to believe.

I'm glad adding salt hasn't wreaked your humidifier tank, If this was universally the case, they wouldn't tell people to use distilled water and not tap water, because of salts and minerals. Some have an aluminium alloy base and will quickly damage from electrolysis etc.

I only read the first page/few posts in detail, but I really did look for a study trial with cpap within the other pages. I didn't see one. Could you give me the direct link please. I'm happy to be shown to be wrong and why I asked for the link in the first instance. I only have schoolboy physics.

You bring up a couple of good points.

The machines I have tested all had stainless steel in the humidifier tank. If your machine has aluminum this probably isn't the best way to ensure long life from your humidifier tank.

The other thing is that I may have discovered a way to produce persistent placebo that lasts for years... Or, on the other hand maybe it just works.

As I posted, the centrism lasted 450 years after being disproved, I guess salt in a cpap for a few years has a way to go, before it can attain the title of dogma.

I did have a google around, I found nothing referring to salt but this study refers to bacteria or other particles/solutes and salt would be defined as a solute. They were unable to be transported. I would also say bacteria can be more easily transported than salt molecules, though I haven't looked up the volume and molecular weight of both.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16236866/
Sterile water is unnecessary in a continuous positive airway pressure convection-type humidifier in the treatment of obstructive sleep apnea syndrome.
The convection-type humidifier produces water vapor but does not aerosolize the water. We conclude that bacteria, other microorganisms, or even solutes that may be contained in the water cannot be transported into the air and thus will not be deposited in the lung. In order to avoid respiratory tract infections, sterile water is not required, at least in this particular humidifier. We suggest that nonsterile tap water is probably a safe alternative.

HoseCrusher wrote: The other thing is that I may have discovered a way to produce persistent placebo that lasts for years... Or, on the other hand maybe it just works.

the placebo effect is real, and scientifically proven... so just keep on keeping on, no matter what the cause, as long as the effect is good.

I have not tested the Sirius humidifier. My testing has been limited to ResMed products.

When you think your home, subjective, observational, undefined any measurement test has the same credibility as the lab in the linked study, I don't think we can go any further. It reminds me of this "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind's already made up".

https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10 ... re-effect/
The Backfire Effect
The Misconception: When your beliefs are challenged with facts, you alter your opinions and incorporate the new information into your thinking.

The Truth: When your deepest convictions are challenged by contradictory evidence, your beliefs get stronger.