Apnea and Brain issues. MRI looks bad.

I see several posts saying to talk to your doctor. That's pretty much a big waste of time unless you are very very lucky and have a doctor that would be honest with you. If it looks bad they won't tell you much or won't discuss it. They have their little tricks for sidetracking conversations to eat up time. Most people have a hard enough time addressing normal issues for just getting used to cpap and the complications that come from it. So you have many problems and that is hard to nail down so I would say your not going to find a doctor that will tell you jack. Once brain damage is done its done. You can get minor relearning but don't expect the brain to heal itself. At best you can slow down the ship sinking but you won't stop it. The body doesn't like going without oxygen. Now the big kicker to think about is did you have mental problems that caused the sleep apnea in the first place. The bodies systems are all interrelated and messing up one can effect the others. Then those problems can feedback make the original problem worse. This is why people die. The bodies systems get out of wack so bad they can't function anymore. If you can use cpap and keep everything working as far as oxygen goes then you might get by for awhile. But you will screw up or something will go wrong with using cpap and you will be scrambling to deal with problem.

Insofar as brain injury can not be recovered from, I strongly think that is not true. When I was in school going back to what was thought by doctors during the 1960's, it was thought that when nerve cells or brain cells died, they did not recover. Some believed that the brain could re-wire itself to work around the dead or damaged brain cells.

This is not true. It is not a fast process, or a sure one, but brain damage is not without hope. There is hope for a stroke patient or from other types of brain damage.

Studies show that some who do a basic daily exercise program can develop brain cells to replace those that have been damaged or died. It does not have to be an exercise program where you must train for a marathon, but one that is as simple as some slow walking.

Personally I suspect that part of why this walking helps to renew nerve cell activity is because people who begin any exercise program start to pay attention to their diet. I believe many older people have what I call static diet, we ate about the same things over and over. So we begin to lack the nutrients our bodies/brains need. Sometimes people who have had a static diet try some vitamin or health food source and get some immediate improvement in a condition. I believe that sometimes they over dramatise the need for the supplement/food/vitamin. Once they get over their deficit of something then more of that supplement/food/vitamin is not going to help.

However, there are some new products on the market which you might want to consider. I will tell you a bit about how I heard about these things so you can judge whether I am being suckered into using a product which has little health benefit to me, and puts money into some companies pocket.

I am a diabetic, for which Medicare pays once a year to have someone look into the back of my eyes. The human eye is very relevant to these questions of how to improve the brain. Anything that is good for the back of my eye, is also good for the other parts of my body where I need high O2 levels to do their function. Those in order of how they require O2 being kidneys, eyes, brain, heart.

My local Optometrist is very interested in Diabetes, and attends the national conference for Diabetes. Two years ago he came back with a suggestion to take vitamin D3. At the last Diabetes conference the best new thing for the treatment for Diabetes and the eyes is the ARREDS Two Vitamin formula. (Notice that is ARREDS Two, not ARREDS One). The results for the study regarding ARREDS Two will not be announced until sometime in 2013. What had happened is that during the study, on individual cases the doctors saw such spectacular results, they broke open the study to see if their were any bad effects from using the Vitamin. Despite the fact that the study was not finished, they decided they had such great results that they would recommend the use of the ARREDS Two vitamin formula for all Diabetics. I have taken the pills and had improvement in my vision is noticeable (and my vision was not real bad compared to a lot of diabetics.)

My Optometrist, in looking at the back of my eyes, told me that I was dehydrated, which is another common problem with older people as well as Diabetics. That I needed more water, and more exercise would help to move out of my eyes some by products of what is normally going on in the eye.

The downside of taking the ARREDS Two formula is that it can clash with some of the giving me too much of the things that are in the normal multi-vitamin Multi-mineral which I already take. So I need to arrange to get the things which I need out of the regular multi while taking the ARREDS Two Formula Vitamin.

I suspect that one of the reasons for the success of the ARREDS two formula, as it is only recently on the shelf, is that it has high potency because it has not decayed while sitting on the shelf.

I notice that Magnesium Taurine is also something that is used by heart patients to help with circulation. Keeping in mind that what is good for the heart is good for the brain.

While not the latest information: "Your Miracle Brain," by Jean Carper has some recommendations about how to help out your brain with better food choices. Things like eat a cup of either blue berries, or strawberries every day (frozen is OK). The benefits of some anti-oxidants and where to find them.

For a diabetic, I know that it is strongly recommended that one eat a diet with a wide variety brightly colored vegetables. Frozen vegetables retain their nutritional benefit, and are reasonably priced.

Also stop creating more damage, start using the xPAP. A lot of folks here have gone from brain fog to knowing we are alive. Doing xPAP is not always easy, and not always immediately rewarding in terms of how we feel (to some) but I testify that using PAP therapy has helped me a lot.

In order of what I recommend you try. Start the xPAP program. Try to walk a bit every day, or something similar. Make sure you drink enough clean water. Take a month of the ARREDS Two formula vitamin.

Try to eat a variety of brightly colored vegetables (oh at least a few days would not be so painful.) Look at the book (like from the public library), "Your Miracle Brain," by Jean Carper. Ask yourself which parts of that you would be willing, able to easily implement.

Improving your mental function is not hopeless. I think you will be astonished at how much function you can quickly restore. Let us know. You can be a guiding beacon for others with similar problems.

Excellent, Excellent post, Purple.

kaiasgram wrote:Hi monica, based on the sleep study 4 years ago what was the specific recommendation regarding treatment? Regular CPAP or some other type of machine?

They really didnt say. Just said a machine with O2. I have a sleep study scheduled for the 2nd of Jan.

jencat824 wrote:You need to have a very long talk with your dr. If you have both epilepsy & OSA, there may or may not be a connection between to the two. Only a good physician can determine that. You have some problems similar to mine (the OSA & epilepsy) and with a lot of testing no link between mine was 'proven' but is 'strongly thought to be' connected. If you 'seized' all night from epilspsy, it makes it harder to read in terms of actual apnea incidents (I've been there), but make it even more necessary to treat the OSA.

Some of the other MRI results could be OSA related, or could be coincidence, leisons for example could be related or could be entirely something else, like MS. You need answers from your dr for your peace of mind, and to plan your treatment going forward. I don't mean to repeat what has already been said about seeing the dr and getting OSA treatment, but in good conscience, I can't help but adding my thought to the others here. I think the article referenced by another forum member here, while technical, explains some of he relationship between OSA and the brain. Yes, you may have made a mistake 4 yrs ago, you can only go forward from here by getting the new test and treating your OSA. I assume you are treating your epilepsy. Is that treatment working or are your having 'break-through' seizures? Treating your OSA can help in some cases of epilepsy - another reason to treat your OSA. OK, now I'm repeating myself. We are here for you.

Hang in there, you are not alone,
Jen

Yes my doctor things that my epilepsy and the apena are going hand and hand with each other. I do have break through seizures and am on 3 meds for the epilepsy. I hope this time the seizures are controlled better so they can have a better picture of how bad the apnea is. I didnt know they couldnt get a real good reading but that makes alot of sense. I go in for a new sleep study on the 2nd

DoriC wrote:Apparently you've been diagnosed with a Lacuner Stroke in the past which can sometimes be silent but can affect personality, mood swings and memory, among other things. You definitely have to see a good neurologist who specializes in sleep apnea as well, and get a definite plan going. I can't believe that no one followed up with you for a titration. At the very least you require cpap therapy. What you describe really needs immediate attention. Good luck and keep us posted.

I just moved to indianapolis so this is a brand new neuro for me. and I cant believe his specialty is epilepsy and he does a sleep lab right in the office. but to save me money he is sending me to a different place for the study. I think it is because of hospital fees. That is kind of freaky to know that there was a lil stroke somewhere in my life. I am 41 years old. But my mom died at 58 with a massive stroke.

sylvie wrote:Here's a very interesting thread to do with Long Term Brain Damage from Sleep Apnea. I'm reading it myself right now.
viewtopic/t68160/Long-Term-damage-done- ... Apnea.html

Thank you very much. I will read it as soon as I am done with responding to this thread

sylvie wrote:I just purchased this article: The Potentially Harmful Medical Consequences of Untreated Sleep-Disordered Breathing

The Evidence Supporting Brain Damage.

I don't know if I'm allowed to post it here.

Thank you

borgready wrote:I see several posts saying to talk to your doctor. That's pretty much a big waste of time unless you are very very lucky and have a doctor that would be honest with you. If it looks bad they won't tell you much or won't discuss it. They have their little tricks for sidetracking conversations to eat up time. Most people have a hard enough time addressing normal issues for just getting used to cpap and the complications that come from it. So you have many problems and that is hard to nail down so I would say your not going to find a doctor that will tell you jack. Once brain damage is done its done. You can get minor relearning but don't expect the brain to heal itself. At best you can slow down the ship sinking but you won't stop it. The body doesn't like going without oxygen. Now the big kicker to think about is did you have mental problems that caused the sleep apnea in the first place. The bodies systems are all interrelated and messing up one can effect the others. Then those problems can feedback make the original problem worse. This is why people die. The bodies systems get out of wack so bad they can't function anymore. If you can use cpap and keep everything working as far as oxygen goes then you might get by for awhile. But you will screw up or something will go wrong with using cpap and you will be scrambling to deal with problem.

You can mess up on CPAP? I dont need any new problems. and Yes I did have mental problems before the apnea was diagnosed. I am really worried about the damage that has been done. Each MRI is getting worse and worse. Sigh. I regret not getting treated.

purple wrote:Insofar as brain injury can not be recovered from, I strongly think that is not true. When I was in school going back to what was thought by doctors during the 1960's, it was thought that when nerve cells or brain cells died, they did not recover. Some believed that the brain could re-wire itself to work around the dead or damaged brain cells.

This is not true. It is not a fast process, or a sure one, but brain damage is not without hope. There is hope for a stroke patient or from other types of brain damage.

Studies show that some who do a basic daily exercise program can develop brain cells to replace those that have been damaged or died. It does not have to be an exercise program where you must train for a marathon, but one that is as simple as some slow walking.

Personally I suspect that part of why this walking helps to renew nerve cell activity is because people who begin any exercise program start to pay attention to their diet. I believe many older people have what I call static diet, we ate about the same things over and over. So we begin to lack the nutrients our bodies/brains need. Sometimes people who have had a static diet try some vitamin or health food source and get some immediate improvement in a condition. I believe that sometimes they over dramatise the need for the supplement/food/vitamin. Once they get over their deficit of something then more of that supplement/food/vitamin is not going to help.

However, there are some new products on the market which you might want to consider. I will tell you a bit about how I heard about these things so you can judge whether I am being suckered into using a product which has little health benefit to me, and puts money into some companies pocket.

I am a diabetic, for which Medicare pays once a year to have someone look into the back of my eyes. The human eye is very relevant to these questions of how to improve the brain. Anything that is good for the back of my eye, is also good for the other parts of my body where I need high O2 levels to do their function. Those in order of how they require O2 being kidneys, eyes, brain, heart.

My local Optometrist is very interested in Diabetes, and attends the national conference for Diabetes. Two years ago he came back with a suggestion to take vitamin D3. At the last Diabetes conference the best new thing for the treatment for Diabetes and the eyes is the ARREDS Two Vitamin formula. (Notice that is ARREDS Two, not ARREDS One). The results for the study regarding ARREDS Two will not be announced until sometime in 2013. What had happened is that during the study, on individual cases the doctors saw such spectacular results, they broke open the study to see if their were any bad effects from using the Vitamin. Despite the fact that the study was not finished, they decided they had such great results that they would recommend the use of the ARREDS Two vitamin formula for all Diabetics. I have taken the pills and had improvement in my vision is noticeable (and my vision was not real bad compared to a lot of diabetics.)

My Optometrist, in looking at the back of my eyes, told me that I was dehydrated, which is another common problem with older people as well as Diabetics. That I needed more water, and more exercise would help to move out of my eyes some by products of what is normally going on in the eye.

The downside of taking the ARREDS Two formula is that it can clash with some of the giving me too much of the things that are in the normal multi-vitamin Multi-mineral which I already take. So I need to arrange to get the things which I need out of the regular multi while taking the ARREDS Two Formula Vitamin.

I suspect that one of the reasons for the success of the ARREDS two formula, as it is only recently on the shelf, is that it has high potency because it has not decayed while sitting on the shelf.

I notice that Magnesium Taurine is also something that is used by heart patients to help with circulation. Keeping in mind that what is good for the heart is good for the brain.

While not the latest information: "Your Miracle Brain," by Jean Carper has some recommendations about how to help out your brain with better food choices. Things like eat a cup of either blue berries, or strawberries every day (frozen is OK). The benefits of some anti-oxidants and where to find them.

For a diabetic, I know that it is strongly recommended that one eat a diet with a wide variety brightly colored vegetables. Frozen vegetables retain their nutritional benefit, and are reasonably priced.

Also stop creating more damage, start using the xPAP. A lot of folks here have gone from brain fog to knowing we are alive. Doing xPAP is not always easy, and not always immediately rewarding in terms of how we feel (to some) but I testify that using PAP therapy has helped me a lot.

In order of what I recommend you try. Start the xPAP program. Try to walk a bit every day, or something similar. Make sure you drink enough clean water. Take a month of the ARREDS Two formula vitamin.

Try to eat a variety of brightly colored vegetables (oh at least a few days would not be so painful.) Look at the book (like from the public library), "Your Miracle Brain," by Jean Carper. Ask yourself which parts of that you would be willing, able to easily implement.

Improving your mental function is not hopeless. I think you will be astonished at how much function you can quickly restore. Let us know. You can be a guiding beacon for others with similar problems.

Thank you for the tips. I really appreciate it. PLUS I am so glad there is hope for me. I will looke for that book and research what a xpap is for I dont know what it is. and Look into the Arreds two formula. I will keep u all posted. I have a new study coming up on the 2nd.

sylvie wrote:Excellent, Excellent post, Purple.

Yes, excellent post. I'm going get that book & try those methods. All make perfect sense & can only help. I'm already on the ARREDS vitamin, will have to check to see if one or two. Great advice for a lot of us.
Thanks

yoyoyomonica wrote:Is it true that the brain really suffers if apnea is present?

Yes.

yoyoyomonica wrote:What kind of symptoms does one experience?

Cognitive difficulties affecting most of the executive functions. This affects job and domestic relationships and destroys quality of life.

yoyoyomonica wrote:I have hbp, depression, migraine, chronic daily headaches, bipolar, thyroid, cant loose weight, chronic fatigue, dyslexia, ibs, gerd, epilepsy

On my mri I have enlarged ventricles, lesions, atrophy, in alot of places and hydrocephalus. and said something about a OLD lacunar.

You might do well to look into eucapnic breathing.

yoyoyomonica wrote:now for the questions, with treatment can some of these things get better?

Yes.

yoyoyomonica wrote:or go away?

Perhaps.

yoyoyomonica wrote: did alot of these things happen because of the apnea?

It's presence certainly did not help. I think we will better be able to answer this after they tell what they believe to be the cause of Obstructive Sleep Apnea sometime in February.

yoyoyomonica wrote:Did I make a mistake not treating it years ago when I found out I had apnea?

The truth is that they do a very poor job of treating it now. Consider that only 20% of those medically commended to PAP are still able to use their machines for more than four hours per night at the one year mark. Simply that stinks! You may well have been wise to wait.

yoyoyomonica wrote:in my sleep study I had 4 years ago. they said I seized all night long. Stopped breathing about 20-40 times a hour and my o2 sat dropped below 70. I dont know if this is bad or not.

The numbers tell only what happened and cannot tell why they happened. For example your AHI of apparently 20-40 events per hour compaired to my 52 (average) – 90 (supine) events per hour. Did you have events only as long as my events so the effect would be less – or – did you have some very serious long events?

The blood oxygen minimum you mention of below 70% is not good but considerably better than my 55%. Another thing to consider is that they only looked at one particular night. We do not sleep the same any night.

Yes, get the right system set up, monitor the data, and use 02 with your cpap if possible and the neurologist approves. Be religious about staying on your system, keeping a correct weight, and sleeping on your side or stomach. Low 02 can definitely cause problems, I wont list my own, but my body has slowly healed somewhat after a late diagnosis. As we say here, cpap compliance is a dirty word, but its a good dirty word because there is no other option than surgery or an appliance that rarely solves everything. I see using 02 with your cpap as an aggressive step toward healing.

kteague wrote:Sometimes there can be than one source of problems. People report here all the time that treating sleep apnea has helped with several of the issues you've mentioned. Giving your body and brain proper sleep in both quantity and quality will provide an atmosphere for you to begin to heal from whatever damage poor sleep and low oxygen may have caused. It may take a little time, but at some point you'll begin to see what symptoms remain and you can address them with your doctor. A good neurologist could tell you if any of what you described is absolutely unrelated to sleep apnea and needs to be addressed separately. Some of your MRI findings are pretty specific, and I really can't speak to those. I can say that I too had lesions show up in my MRIs. The good thing is treating your OSA can at least stop further damage, and maybe even reverse some. That makes treatment a winning approach no matter what. Good luck as you go forward.

Do the CPAP. All night, every night, every time you nap.

Be sure to read up the links in my signature line to get a good CPAP machine and not be screwed by your DME into a dumb machine that doesn't monitor your therapy properly.

Get the software and monitor your therapy yourself.

Proper CPAP will do at least 10 times as much good as voodoo breathing and other secondary self treatments.

The effects of apnea will go away to some extent. Some will go away quickly, some will take time, some may not get better, but will stop getting worse.

Do realize that you'll still have whatever problems are not caused by apnea. You might even have some other problem that contributed to you developing apnea in the first place.

archangle wrote:... Do realize that you'll still have whatever problems are not caused by apnea. You might even have some other problem that contributed to you developing apnea in the first place. ...

That sure seems to be the case here. Normally that much damage to the brain is a result of other problems than sleep apnea. From what I've read, sleep apnea, while it can impact the brain does not impact it to this extent. It is much more likely the underlying problem with the brain is leading to sleep apnea problems. For instance, I have degeneration of the brain stem and cerebellum. That contributes to my central sleep apnea. Not the other way around. That is the central sleep apnea did not cause the degeneration.

Of course, that's just a layman's view of this. It doesn't hurt to discuss this with your neurologist, but I would be surprised if that is not their view as well.