Deep Cycle Home Backup Supply

[quote="archangle"]I've been told by several people who have worked with generators to avoid Generac.

[quote]

ArchAngel,

"Generac" happened to be Consumer Reports Best Buy in a recent issue. But it refers to the standard generator and not to the Propane unit.

p.s. there are at least 2 threads running on this board at the same time.
See also my post in the other thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=83669&p=762365#p762365

avi123 wrote: ArchAngel,
"Generac" happened to be Consumer Reports Best Buy in a recent issue. But it refers to the standard generator and not to the Propane unit.

Presumably, that was one (or two) specific models, not necessarily the brand as a whole.

These were people who had used generators for years, not someone looking at new units. These guys probably used their generators a lot.

However, maybe they're better now, and maybe my friends were overly picky. Any brand of engine powered device does tend to have problems.

By the way, everyone should watch "Consumer Reports" claims carefully. Consumer Reports and Consumers Union are the "real" deal non-profit organization. There's also a for profit "Consumer Guide" company that also publishes reports, including "Best Buy" ratings, but this is a separate group and accepts advertising money from those being reviewed. Be very careful when advertising or a salesman mentions "Consumers xxx Best Buy" to be sure you understand who it's from.

I'll assume avi read the real report from the real Consumer Reports magazine.

DiverCTHunter wrote:My PicoUPS arrived this afternoon and after a quick visit to Radio Shack for a longer roll of wire it's been a success.

Running the machine on it tonight as a burn-in and if things behave I'll post pics later.

Sorry for the delay. I've managed to accidentally disconnect or shut off the power supply one way or another for the last 3 nights. Tonight's experiment involves a slightly different design. Instead of the computer power supply I've been using, this time I'll use the PRS1's OWN power brick for input.

Here's a pic of my current proof-of-concept rig:


The brick is a 12 Amp-hour SLA battery from a defunct APC I picked out of the city recycling center. The pigtail on the left is connected to the PRS's 60 watt PSU using a Radio-Shack type "M" power jack.

DiverCTHunter wrote:The brick is a 12 Amp-hour SLA battery from a defunct APC I picked out of the city recycling center. The pigtail on the left is connected to the PRS's 60 watt PSU using a Radio-Shack type "M" power jack.

I'd be a lot happier if there was a fuse right at the battery.

Especially if the spade lugs on the other end of the black cable connecting to the battery are not insulated when disconnected. I can't see from the picture whether they'd be insulated if you undid those connectors.

archangle wrote:

avi123 wrote:
I'll assume avi read the real report from the real Consumer Reports magazine.

Consumer Reports Oct. 2012:

http ://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/20 ... /index.htm

Blackouts like the one that crippled the East Coast last June needn’t lead to spoiled food and nights by flashlight. Our latest generator tests show that you can start powering a houseful of lights and appliances for less than $700. But as we found, some important components cost extra.

We focused on moderately priced portable and stationary models that deliver 5,000 to 7,000 watts, enough for most needs. Portables cost the least and can be stored in a garage or shed when you don’t need them. Generac’s GP5500 5939, a CR Best Buy at $670, powered refrigerators, well pumps, and other home gear almost as well as the pricier, top-scoring Troy-Bilt.




Stationary models install permanently outside your home and start automatically when needed. And because they run on propane or natural gas instead of gasoline, they offer extended or unlimited run time. Generac was also the value leader in this group; its CorePower 5837, a CR Best Buy at $1,800, performed capably for far less than the top-rated Kohler we tested.

I wouldn't count on natural gas to fuel a generator in a disaster. Depending on what happened sometimes the gas is shut off due to leaks, then a NG generator is useless.
Propane is equally hard to resupply unless you have a very large tank to run for a long time. You cannot simply refill it yourself.
The small BBQ grill type LP (propane) tanks can't always fuel a larger generator, their boil off rate can't keep up with the demand.
All in all I prefer gasoline or diesel, I have both types. Diesel is more efficient but both the generator and fuel costs more, plus they stink more IMO.
For most people gasoline is probably best, keep the car tank full and a siphon hose handy if you can't safely store it somewhere.

archangle wrote:

DiverCTHunter wrote:The brick is a 12 Amp-hour SLA battery from a defunct APC I picked out of the city recycling center. The pigtail on the left is connected to the PRS's 60 watt PSU using a Radio-Shack type "M" power jack.

I'd be a lot happier if there was a fuse right at the battery.

Especially if the spade lugs on the other end of the black cable connecting to the battery are not insulated when disconnected. I can't see from the picture whether they'd be insulated if you undid those connectors.

The 3/16" 20-gauge female spade connectors are the semi permanent locking style they won't disconnect without a tool. I had a fuse on the battery end, but it was wired for 1/4" 10-gauge. I've rewired it back in now.

I think it's time to split out of this thread since it's been hijacked twice now.

BudSky wrote:I wouldn't count on natural gas to fuel a generator in a disaster. Depending on what happened sometimes the gas is shut off due to leaks, then a NG generator is useless.
Propane is equally hard to resupply unless you have a very large tank to run for a long time. You cannot simply refill it yourself.
The small BBQ grill type LP (propane) tanks can't always fuel a larger generator, their boil off rate can't keep up with the demand.
All in all I prefer gasoline or diesel, I have both types. Diesel is more efficient but both the generator and fuel costs more, plus they stink more IMO.
For most people gasoline is probably best, keep the car tank full and a siphon hose handy if you can't safely store it somewhere.

My natural gas has failed a lot less than my electricity. None of those outages were disaster related.

However, if you're in earthquake country, I suspect it goes out pretty often after an earthquake.

How about Sandy sufferers with natgas? Have any of you had your natgas go off during or after the storm?

Has anyone else had natgas go off during a disaster?

By the way, I've heard a lot of modern vehicles have antisiphon things. Someone told me they tried to siphon and there was some sort of gate thing in the filler hose that grabbed their siphon hose and they couldn't get it back out.

Other than that, using the car tank is an excellent idea.

archangle wrote: How about Sandy sufferers with natgas? Have any of you had your natgas go off during or after the storm?

Has anyone else had natgas go off during a disaster?

I heard on NPR this morning that some of the folks who rode it out had the gas cut to their street due to leak concerns in their (condemned) neighbors' houses. There's an old Southern phrase for that, but it's politically incorrect.

One note if you have a long power outage.

It takes a while to recharge this battery system. If you discharge it deeply, it may take several days to recharge it.

If you have a long power outage, you can't run a generator a few hours a day and recharge the battery fully, or take it somewhere there is power and recharge it quickly.

If you want to recharge the battery quickly, you'll need a higher power battery charger like you'd use to recharge a dead car battery. Even then, you'll need several hours of charging with most of them. Most of these fast chargers are not suitable for constant connection to the battery. Some fast chargers claim they won't overcharge the battery, but usually this means you can leave it connected for a day or so. If you leave them connected all the time, they'll eat the battery up in a few weeks or months.

If you want a quick recharge, you'll need a "float" charger like the Schumacher charger I list, and a quick charger that you manually connect to the battery when you need a quick charge.

This also applies to most of the battery backup systems mentioned here, including the jumper battery systems. The charger designed to keep it charged long term isn't usually designed to recharge quickly.

archangle wrote:

BudSky wrote:
How about Sandy sufferers with natgas? Have any of you had your natgas go off during or after the storm?

I certainly hope so! I saw video on one of the news feeds of natural gas bubbling out of the water after some sort of underground pipe rupture, it was coming up all over the place.....they were scrambling trying to get the whole area cut off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDulRI6B98s

Any area with earthquake potential is a poor choice for emergency systems using NG delivered through buried pipeline. My opinion.
I'm involved professionally with literally hundreds of emergency back up generators from 40kW all the way up to 1MW. There is a reason none of them use natural gas, even though it is readily available, as their sole purpose is very reliable emergency backup.
Now for home use for a few hours, usually on an occasional basis, go for it. Long term use, having your own stored fuel can be priceless.

BudSky wrote:

archangle wrote:

BudSky wrote:
How about Sandy sufferers with natgas? Have any of you had your natgas go off during or after the storm?

I certainly hope so! I saw video on one of the news feeds of natural gas bubbling out of the water after some sort of underground pipe rupture, it was coming up all over the place.....they were scrambling trying to get the whole area cut off.

Of course, even if you're in earthquake country, the time average between events serious enough to shutoff the natgas is pretty long.

Lots of folks here have had electrical failures. Has anyone here had both electricity and natgas fail at the same time?

I wonder if the natgas went off during Katrina.

archangle wrote:
1) Battery - Get a "Deep cycle" marine battery. Make sure it doesn't say anything about hybrid, starting, dual purpose, etc. It can mention trolling.

Here's one example. http://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart-Max ... ifications

I was at walmart buying some synthetic oil for the weekend's chores and checked out the marine batteries. All of the large marine batteries had a build date of 2/12. They've been sitting on the shelf for nearly a year

My lifelong background is in utility power production in nuclear power stations. I am also very interested in power protection and backup power for my CPAP. While I am used to multiple 10 Megawatt diesel generators with load shedding and sequencing for emergency AC and DC loads, I think it is safe to say we can scale it back a bit for the CPAP devices.

IMHO, the primary first priority is power protection for these medical devices. On the surface, the common wisdom is the "best" we can do is the whole home surge protection. The issue I have is to get the degree of voltage and current clamping and disapation of a massive surge, the cost is very high. One of the reasons is because the common surge protection devices rely on 30 year old shunt mode technology developed by General Electric in the early 70's - the MOV (metal oxide varistors). Added to that is for a whole house surge protector, the clamping level is high enough to be ineffective at the single outlet.

What I have and recommend to everyone is the surge cancelation technology developed by ZeroSurge. Please research this for yourself at http://www.zerosurge.com/. The device I have protecting my S9 VPAP Adapt is model 2R15T (#006-00703). Link is: http://www.zerosurge.com/residential/re ... et-models/

I am still looking into the battery back-up schema. My goal is to feed power from the surge protection unit to a battery (via rectifier) and the S9 connected to the battery. A simple solution where if the offsite power trips, the S9 never knows that event happened because all that is dropped is the rectifier charging unit.

How long would this last with and S9 and humidifier? 14.8V 8.8AH LiCoxNiyMnzO2 lithium battery (130 Watt-hours)

I'm thinking if I bought one of these http://www.paulcbuff.com/vm120.php then I could get double duty from it.

Probably just wishful thinking....