I gotta get off the klonopin it is destroying me

I go to bed on a high end machine and wake up with no leak rate and still feel like my sleep is poor. Its the klonopin. My sleep gets "deeper" feeling and more restorative when I cut back on klonopin. I hate the stuff now, but dont know how to get off of it. My current shrink I think believes I need the stuff, but then again he does not think CPAP helps with anything.

I think I will probably need a new shrink to get off the klonopin. Unless i am willing to go off it at a super duper slow rate, like .25 mg every two weeks or something ridiculously slow like that. Which would take me forever to get off 4 mg klonopin at that rate. I used to be able to drop by a rate of 1 mg a week or every two weeks. Now I cant even drop 1 mg or its like I feel like teeth are being pulled.

Eric

Suddenly Worn Out wrote:I go to bed on a high end machine and wake up with no leak rate and still feel like my sleep is poor. Its the klonopin. My sleep gets "deeper" feeling and more restorative when I cut back on klonopin. I hate the stuff now, but dont know how to get off of it. My current shrink I think believes I need the stuff, but then again he does not think CPAP helps with anything.

I think I will probably need a new shrink to get off the klonopin. Unless i am willing to go off it at a super duper slow rate, like .25 mg every two weeks or something ridiculously slow like that. Which would take me forever to get off 4 mg klonopin at that rate. I used to be able to drop by a rate of 1 mg a week or every two weeks. Now I cant even drop 1 mg or its like I feel like teeth are being pulled.

Eric

Hi Eric,

Actually for many people .25 very two weeks is way too fast. Many people need to taper at 5% to 10% of current rate every 4 to 6 weeks to have any chance of a successful taper.

By the way, it took me almost 4 years to get off of 4 psych meds. My former psychiatrist thought that was absurd and said it would take forever. My attitude was that 4 years was going to go by whether I tapered slowly or didn't so I might as well take the safe route and make sure I did it safely.

My point is it doesn't sound like a fast taper is working for you. So if you really want to have any chance of getting off of Klonopin permanently and having a decent quality of life, it seems going slow is your only option even if you think it will take forever.

49er

I understand that doctors are not allowed to take kickbacks any more;
but this makes me wonder if the drug companies have figured a way around that.

chunkyfrog wrote:I understand that doctors are not allowed to take kickbacks any more;
but this makes me wonder if the drug companies have figured a way around that.

I work for one that fell afoul of the authorities for something unrelated. Penalties were in the hundreds of millions. As part of the settlement, all employees (even those of us in R/D who never see cusomers) now are mandated to take ethics training and they make no bones about the fact that even a hint of the appearance of impropriety is not to be tolerated. We're told to rat on anyone who might be involved in anything nefarious.

I'm in the middle of reading Cat Daddy by Jackson Galaxy*, the cat behaviorist on Animal Planet (cable channel). A good read. His bio chronicled his abuse of Klonopin and what he went through to get clean. It sounds like tapering off wasn't trivial for him, to put it mildly, and the prescribers sometimes don't take that into account when they advise patients to get or stay on it.

*http://www.amazon.com/Cat-Daddy-Worlds- ... 1585429376

If .25 per MONTH is what works for you, then that's what you should do. Doctors ain't always right, even good ones.

As an above poster mentioned, some people taper at 5% or 10% slowly. It just depends on the individual how fast you can go.

I think to get off of it at a faster rate that will allow me to get good sleep and function normally, I will probably have to switch psychiatrists. Maybe, possibly to one that is an addictions specialist. When my original problem was severe depression and some anxiety (all pre-CPAP btw).

The cruddy thing is this. I dont even smoke or drink and have never used an illegal recreational drug in my entire life. Ive never even smoked a joint. Yet I am pretty sure I am physically addicted to this klonopin. If I got to a new shrink who will get this fixed, it will probably mean five to seven days in detox, a completely re-done blood pressure medication regime, and worst of all, it will be on my record "has been physically addicted to klonopin." Nobody has told me that but that is what I suspect, strongly, will happen if I "go for help."

I dont believe I would have ever been put on the klonopin had my sleep apnea been treated many years ago.

Eric

I dont want to get off the SSRI btw, the SSRI helps me. its just the klonopin, it totally screws up my sleep. Makes it shallower feeling. Similar to booze or anti-histamines in that respect.

Eric

Suddenly Worn Out wrote:I think to get off of it at a faster rate that will allow me to get good sleep and function normally, I will probably have to switch psychiatrists. Maybe, possibly to one that is an addictions specialist. When my original problem was severe depression and some anxiety (all pre-CPAP btw).

The cruddy thing is this. I dont even smoke or drink and have never used an illegal recreational drug in my entire life. Ive never even smoked a joint. Yet I am pretty sure I am physically addicted to this klonopin. If I got to a new shrink who will get this fixed, it will probably mean five to seven days in detox, a completely re-done blood pressure medication regime, and worst of all, it will be on my record "has been physically addicted to klonopin." Nobody has told me that but that is what I suspect, strongly, will happen if I "go for help."

I dont believe I would have ever been put on the klonopin had my sleep apnea been treated many years ago.

Eric

Hi Eric,

49er gives good advice about this and I second it. You can be taking a benzo prescription as written, not abusing it, and still become physically dependent on it. Which makes going off it a challenge -- how much of a challenge is an individual thing. Psychiatrists are well trained in how to prescribe these meds but very few know much about how to help patients taper off. In general it is true that the tapering gets tougher as you approach the lower doses -- seems counterintuitive but every source I've consulted with says the same thing. So take it easy. Even if being on the K is affecting your sleep quality negatively, going off too fast will affect it even more negatively.

Take care, take it easy, and let folks know if you need some resources/support.

I've not taken Klonopin, so my comments are not specific to it. One med I was on at a high dose I unwisely stopped using abruptly. My actions caused a neurological glitch that has never fully resolved. I did go back on the med and build up the dose then wean off, but the damage was already done. Meds don't warn us to wean without the need being shown in studies.

When one is desperate for good sleep, that desire can feel like the most important consideration in our lives. If decreasing your Klonopin is causing you other problems, please do consider that the slower route just may yield sleep benefits long before you are completely weaned off the med. It may be that the dose you are on is as much the culprit as the medicine itself. I've weaned off meds that were causing side effects, and sometimes just the reduction brought some relief. You may not be doomed to bear the side effects until the weaning process is over, just till it reaches a certain point specific to your side effects.

It's just so tricky to treat any psychiatric "problems" until sleep apnea is addressed. It can cause A LOT of mood and psychological disorders, on top of the physical effects.

That being said, there's probably nothing wrong with taking what you need to while you're getting used to CPAP and getting sleep apnea fixed. If you feel like you can do without somethinig, then it's worth a shot (by decreasing it slowly). If you feel like something is helping you, stay on it. Sometimes doctors just make this too complicated!

kaiasgram wrote:

Suddenly Worn Out wrote:I think to get off of it at a faster rate that will allow me to get good sleep and function normally, I will probably have to switch psychiatrists. Maybe, possibly to one that is an addictions specialist. When my original problem was severe depression and some anxiety (all pre-CPAP btw).

The cruddy thing is this. I dont even smoke or drink and have never used an illegal recreational drug in my entire life. Ive never even smoked a joint. Yet I am pretty sure I am physically addicted to this klonopin. If I got to a new shrink who will get this fixed, it will probably mean five to seven days in detox, a completely re-done blood pressure medication regime, and worst of all, it will be on my record "has been physically addicted to klonopin." Nobody has told me that but that is what I suspect, strongly, will happen if I "go for help."

I dont believe I would have ever been put on the klonopin had my sleep apnea been treated many years ago.

Eric

Hi Eric,

49er gives good advice about this and I second it. You can be taking a benzo prescription as written, not abusing it, and still become physically dependent on it. Which makes going off it a challenge -- how much of a challenge is an individual thing. Psychiatrists are well trained in how to prescribe these meds but very few know much about how to help patients taper off. In general it is true that the tapering gets tougher as you approach the lower doses -- seems counterintuitive but every source I've consulted with says the same thing. So take it easy. Even if being on the K is affecting your sleep quality negatively, going off too fast will affect it even more negatively.

Take care, take it easy, and let folks know if you need some resources/support.

Plus 1.

Eric... you can try .25 for awhile to see what happens. You just might be one of those who can taper quickly. However, be prepared for a much slower taper if it doesn't work for you. I haven't read all your posts so I'm wondering why your doctor decided on 4mg. Do you take 4mg spread out over the day or 4mg at nite? Either way, 4mg is a "healthy" dose of K, and I think a slow taper would be wise. Being miserable while you are tapering isn't the answer. Maintaining a good quality of life and sleeping well is. Best to you.

Hi Eric,

I think to get off of it at a faster rate that will allow me to get good sleep and function normally, I will probably have to switch psychiatrists. Maybe, possibly to one that is an addictions specialist. When my original problem was severe depression and some anxiety (all pre-CPAP btw).

Actually, tapering at a faster rate will probably not allow you to get good sleep and function normally. Many people who taper too quickly have severe withdrawal insomnia and have great difficulty in functioning. You'll end up spending alot more years recovering than if you had taken the time to taper slowly.

The cruddy thing is this. I dont even smoke or drink and have never used an illegal recreational drug in my entire life. Ive never even smoked a joint. Yet I am pretty sure I am physically addicted to this klonopin. If I got to a new shrink who will get this fixed, it will probably mean five to seven days in detox, a completely re-done blood pressure medication regime, and worst of all, it will be on my record "has been physically addicted to klonopin." Nobody has told me that but that is what I suspect, strongly, will happen if I "go for help."

I totally understand.

As an FYI, you do not want to end up in detox as you will be taken off of the Klonipin way too fast plus you'll now have additional meds to deal with as they will be used to get you off of the drug.

By the way, the doctor works for you so please don't think you have to what he/she suggests if that isn't in your best interest.

I dont believe I would have ever been put on the klonopin had my sleep apnea been treated many years ago.

I feel the same way regarding the psych meds I was put on as I think I have had apnea for quite awhile.

49er

49er wrote:

Suddenly Worn Out wrote:I go to bed on a high end machine and wake up with no leak rate and still feel like my sleep is poor. Its the klonopin. My sleep gets "deeper" feeling and more restorative when I cut back on klonopin. I hate the stuff now, but dont know how to get off of it. My current shrink I think believes I need the stuff, but then again he does not think CPAP helps with anything.

I think I will probably need a new shrink to get off the klonopin. Unless i am willing to go off it at a super duper slow rate, like .25 mg every two weeks or something ridiculously slow like that. Which would take me forever to get off 4 mg klonopin at that rate. I used to be able to drop by a rate of 1 mg a week or every two weeks. Now I cant even drop 1 mg or its like I feel like teeth are being pulled.

Eric

Hi Eric,

Actually for many people .25 very two weeks is way too fast. Many people need to taper at 5% to 10% of current rate every 4 to 6 weeks to have any chance of a successful taper.

If the original dose is 4mg, then 10% of that is 0.4mg and 5% of that is 0.2mg.

So when the Eric is talking about a .25mg taper, he's talking about an initial taper of 6.25%. So the taper dosage is OK, it's just the time frame of reducing the dose by that much every two weeks that may be too ambitious.

49er is right by the way: You can either spend the long amount of time it's going to take to properly taper off the klonopin actually tapering off or you can spend it continuing taking the drug. If it takes you three years to taper, you'll still finally be off of it in three years if you choose to do it. If not, you'll still be taking the same dose (or a higher dose) of klonopin in three years and wondering how to get off the stuff.

kteague wrote: It may be that the dose you are on is as much the culprit as the medicine itself. I've weaned off meds that were causing side effects, and sometimes just the reduction brought some relief. You may not be doomed to bear the side effects until the weaning process is over, just till it reaches a certain point specific to your side effects.

True, I had to slowly wean off a med that was causing some major side effects and half-way through the detox most of the serious symptoms disappeared. I was also told that I might experience increased side effects as the dose tapered down but fortunately that was not the case for me. Eric, You're getting some very good advice here. Good luck.

ems wrote:

kaiasgram wrote:[quote="Suddenly Worn Out"

Do you take 4mg spread out over the day or 4mg at nite? Either way, 4mg is a "healthy" dose of K, and I think a slow taper would be wise. Being miserable while you are tapering isn't the answer. Maintaining a good quality of life and sleeping well is. Best to you.

This is how I ended up on 4 mg klonopin. I originally started on just 1 mg klonopin in 2001, after developing hypertension problems from screwing up with the MAOI antidepressants. I basically, used klonopin "off label" as a hypertension drug. At that time I was not treated for OSA, which made my hypertension real difficult to control. Before MAOIs, I was having problems with borderline hypertension on and off and a few doctors had mentioned my BP as being borderline to borderline high. The MAOIs screwed it up beyond control.

After a year or two at 1 mg klonopin, I found 1 mg did jack for me. Being a controlled substance, it lost most of its effect. I told my psychiatrist and without me prompting him much he increased my dose to 2 mg which I stayed at for years, until 2009. During this period, I went thru a six month period where I cut the klonopin back to 1 mg and exercised a lot and combined with CPAP, my sleep got MUCH BETTER and my memory and concentration began to return and normalize. However I went back to 2 mg klonopin because of severe stress I was under at that time, that I am not under right now.

By then, 2 mg had lost most of its effect and I asked my psychiatrist to increase it to 4 mg as I was starting a new job and wanted to be able to "stay cool" to keep the job. I originally intended to stay on the 4 mg for about six months only and go back to 2 mg. But when I tried going back to 2 mg, I found it was not possible. So now Ive been on 4 mg daily, all at bedtime, since spring 2009. I cut back just 1 mg for a day or two and I get awful rebound insomnia and rebound hypertension. I talked to one psych nurse about it and she said, "that sounds like detox type symptoms. you might have to go to detox to get off klonopin." I told my shrink that and he did not like hearing it. The nurse was from another psych facility in the same city he practices in.

None of the sleep docs Ive been to like the fact I take klonopin. One in particular, actually two sleep doctors, told me to try to get off of it if I could. What happens, is it makes me depressed and negates many of the positive things CPAP gives me like deeper stage sleep.

Eric