Zeo - What are your Wake, REM, Light and Deep percentages?

I've accumulated two weeks of Zeo sleep stage data and starting to see some trends. Just loving this device and find it valuable. I've looked at what Zeo coaching thinks my averages should be and also looked at a few people on U-tube showing their data.

It seems my REM sleep was longer than my light sleep. Zeo suggests it should be the opposite. My AHI is <1.0 over this time though I have some hyponea action that is being taken care of by the ASV, so sleep is pretty good.

The first night after about 8 hours of sleep:
Awake: 5%
REM: 51%
Light: 37%
Deep: 7%

Over 2 weeks, there is a trend towards longer deep sleep and longer light sleep and shorter REM time, which is good, according to Zeo.
Last night after about 8.5 hours:

Awake: 4%
REM: 42%
Light: 43%
Deep: 11%

Zeo average = 93.


Here's my gold standard. He's a 20 year old triathlete champion with his Zeo readings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYC6Zlz7_JQ (See time 1:30 for his readings)

His Zeo numbers:

Awake: 0%
REM: 33%
Light: 53%
Deep: 14%
I noticed he had only one brief 3 minute wake-up the whole night... Notice his REM is much shorter than his light sleep as Zeo suggests it should be.

Of course, I don't expect to have numbers like his, but thought that he was probably in superb shape and maybe this could be a reference or guideline to works towards.

Notice his REM and Light times are reversed compared to my first reading. However, I have moved closer towards his times over the last two weeks - but still have a long way to go. I am also much older than he, so of course can't expect the same results.

I also realize that the accuracy of ZEO is possibly about 70-80%, from what I can measure using SleepyHead chart waveforms. But given this is all we have to work with, I figure it is worth the effort.

I do know I am feeling better since getting more deep sleep and light sleep - and less REM. I sometimes feel like I am dreaming all night. Too much dreaming/REM sometimes tires me out the next day.

I'm very curious what some of you other Zeo users have seen for trends - what are your past and present percentages and are you striving to shift these sleep stage percentages around? What other Zeo-related things have you discovered that helped you sleep better?


Tom

Good question.


Although Zeo ZQ has basically stayed the same, I'm happy with this because the Times Woken has went down.

Now if I could get Deep Sleep up. Any suggestions?

The avg for when I don't wear my mask (most of the nights over several weeks/months):

Total Z - 7:51
Total Deep - :45
Light Sleep - 4:45
Total REM - 2:15
Total Wake - :02
Avg Wake-ups - 1
Avg ZQ - 85

I have two toddlers and they often fuss early in the night which is likely impacting my deep sleep number averages. Not much I can do about that. From what I can tell, my numbers are very much in line with someone my age 30-39.

When I do wear my mask, my numbers are horrible and I usually delete the night. Mostly wake-ups and little quality sleep. I haven't slept more than 30-45 minutes straight with it over several months. I don't consider them valid so I just drop them from the scoring.

Thanks for posting your data. Interesting stuff.

I see both of you guys have about the recommended split between light sleep and REM. Mine is the opposite.

Last night it was slanted more towards REM again and I dreamed up a storm. I have normal dreams but last night it was about being back in school taking an exam. I spent half the night struggling to take this test and woke up a little frazzled.

Over the last two weeks I've been able to get the centrals and OSA down to about zero and also reduced the hyponeas and flow limitations down. The Zeo seems better except for too much dreaming.

EDM, I'm not sure how to increase your deep sleep except to work on interruptions and other problems that will not allow you to stay in a quiet dream state until you hit deep. Deep appears to be a fragile stage and comes and goes quickly at times. Probably the hardest state to obtain for me.

Any suggestions - or the meaning of too much dreaming and REM ?

Tom

Tom,

I am not fully aware of your history, but perhaps you are experiencing REM rebound? Do you take any supplments like ZMA or medications that might increase REM? The only time I have ever had odd REM/dreaming was when I took ZMA. The dreams were amazingly vivid and seemed to last all night. Just a couple of random-ish thoughts.

Monk,

OK on the ZMA.

No, I don't take any medications at all. But the increased REM COULD be something in the food I eat. Two weeks ago I ate some MSG by mistake and my resp rate soared for three days. So it may be something else in the food. I usually don't eat anything for 3-4 hours before bed, except have some yogurt. This will be a difficult thing to troubleshoot...

Think I'll look for some info on excess REM on the web too.


BTW, why do you think your sleep/Zeo is so bad when using the mask? Sounds like something is very wrong with the CPAP therapy if the mask use is limited to 45 minutes, no?

T

BTW, why do you think your sleep/Zeo is so bad when using the mask? Sounds like something is very wrong with the CPAP therapy if the mask use is limited to 45 minutes, no?

Unknown reasons at this point. The therapy is 'fine' in terms of leaks, AHI, comfort, etc. I am just unable to sleep with it and neither me nor my doc have been able to figure out why. PAP isn't for everyone, obviously.

themonk wrote:

BTW, why do you think your sleep/Zeo is so bad when using the mask? Sounds like something is very wrong with the CPAP therapy if the mask use is limited to 45 minutes, no?

Unknown reasons at this point. The therapy is 'fine' in terms of leaks, AHI, comfort, etc. I am just unable to sleep with it and neither me nor my doc have been able to figure out why. PAP isn't for everyone, obviously.

Assuming your doc doesn't support NOT using the machine? Wondering what if any daytime symptoms you experience off it/on it. Aside from low/high ZEO scores.

Thanks,

Z

Assuming your doc doesn't support NOT using the machine? Wondering what if any daytime symptoms you experience off it/on it. Aside from low/high ZEO scores.

I have never had any symptoms of apnea of any kind unless you count issues falling asleep when stressed and general anxiety at times, which I don't. No snoring, no daytime sleepiness, no high BP, no heart issues, no high cholesterol, no late night bathroom breaks, no gasping for air, no nothing. I actually laughed out loud the first time I saw the Epworth Sleepiness scale test as some kind of joke (falling asleep at stop lights?!?).

So, PAP didn't fix anything because nothing was wrong to fix. I didn't go to the sleep lab for apnea, I went to learn natural ways of calming my mind/body to sleep without taking sleep meds which I have used during periods of stress. Apnea was completely out of left field.

Monk,

OK, I see. You're using the Zeo for general sleep improvement not related to sleep apnea.

So, basically, the problems you're having are falling asleep and occassional stress that makes the sleep fragmented? You've tried various meds... so where are you at this point - out of ideas to try for now?

BTW, I've found the ASV machine to be a wonderful tool for falling asleep. Before ASV it would take me 30 minutes or more to doze off. Sometimes I couldn't fall asleep at all. The centrals scared the hell outa me and I often woke up in a panic during a long central. I often had to go outside to walk around to calm down.

Now with the ASV pacing, my breathing AND confidence that the machine will not let me suffocate lets me fall asleep within 3-5 minutes. The paced, hypnotic breathing was the key for me. That machine is truly a mechanical miracle.

Everyone is different, of course, but this has worked for me. Now if I can just tone down these over-active REM dreams.


Tom

OK, I see. You're using the Zeo for general sleep improvement not related to sleep apnea.

So, basically, the problems you're having are falling asleep and occassional stress that makes the sleep fragmented? You've tried various meds... so where are you at this point - out of ideas to try for now?

Not so much general sleep improvement, although that is a side benefit. More building a database of my own health information. I use an oximeter for the same reason. Not to monitor treatment, but to try to find the truth in what is going on.

As for where I am now, I am working through Dr. Barry Krakow's book and exploring other meditation techniques. I have found that relying on my sleep doc is not going to get me anywhere with anything. If my sleep problems are to be solved, I have to solve them myself. Honestly though, they are very mild and probably wouldn't be clinically 'diagnosable', but they were worrisome enough at times that I wanted to learn ways to enhance my sleep. I try to maintain as close to optimal health as possible and sleep was the final domino, so to speak.

I should note that after 6 months of 'treatment', I have never learned anything from my sleep doc to actually sleep better. I am several hundred dollars poorer though.

themonk wrote:

OK, I see. You're using the Zeo for general sleep improvement not related to sleep apnea.

So, basically, the problems you're having are falling asleep and occassional stress that makes the sleep fragmented? You've tried various meds... so where are you at this point - out of ideas to try for now?

Not so much general sleep improvement, although that is a side benefit. More building a database of my own health information. I use an oximeter for the same reason. Not to monitor treatment, but to try to find the truth in what is going on.

As for where I am now, I am working through Dr. Barry Krakow's book and exploring other meditation techniques. I have found that relying on my sleep doc is not going to get me anywhere with anything. If my sleep problems are to be solved, I have to solve them myself. Honestly though, they are very mild and probably wouldn't be clinically 'diagnosable', but they were worrisome enough at times that I wanted to learn ways to enhance my sleep. I try to maintain as close to optimal health as possible and sleep was the final domino, so to speak.

I should note that after 6 months of 'treatment', I have never learned anything from my sleep doc to actually sleep better. I am several hundred dollars poorer though.

If fragmentation and poor sleep is the issue and it's unrelated to apnea in any way shape or form, then yes... a sleep doctor isn't going to be much help. I'm unfortunately going through something similar now. I can get my CSA managed, but my sleep is still highly fragmented.

Z

Z, I know you don't know me, but I am not one to make a lot of recommdations because I don't really consider my opinion any more valuable than anyone else's plus I don't really like to take them! However, I do highly recommend Dr. Barry Krakow's book called Sound Sleep. It is extremly eye-opening. Some of it is a little hokey honestly, but it has helped me re-define my sleep issues and see things with a little more clarity. It was recommended by Robysue on this forum which is where I first heard of it.

themonk wrote:Z, I know you don't know me, but I am not one to make a lot of recommdations because I don't really consider my opinion any more valuable than anyone else's plus I don't really like to take them! However, I do highly recommend Dr. Barry Krakow's book called Sound Sleep. It is extremly eye-opening. Some of it is a little hokey honestly, but it has helped me re-define my sleep issues and see things with a little more clarity. It was recommended by Robysue on this forum which is where I first heard of it.

Thanks man, that book's actually been brought up before. Might be time to add it to my arsenal. If anything, maybe it'll put me to sleep! Wait, I have no problem falling asleep...it's STAYING asleep.

I need to check that book out too.

Been reading about sleep stages and came across this article. It's fairly basic but gets a little into why we have various sleep stages and the characteristics.

http://www.helpguide.org/life/sleeping.htm

Tom