Why do people give up?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
jnk
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Re: Why do people give up?

Post by jnk » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:34 am

Pugsy wrote: . . . I can almost spot them from the first posting...and for sure after a few "yeah, buts" . . .
And I'm always impressed when you continue to be helpful--which can sometimes, of course, just as you have done, mean mentioning second-best alternatives to PAP that are much, much better than people doing nothing at all for their OSA.

It is often the ones thrashing and fighting hardest in the water who are in greatest danger of drowning unless someone can find a way to sneak around behind to drag them to shore despite the flailing arms and screams of resistance. Occasionally it is at the exact moment before they give up that it is easiest to hold their heads above water and get them where they need to go. They just can't do it on their own when they are that exhausted from the fight.

Fear does strange things to people; they often throw punches at the people extending a hand of help to them. The most helpful get good at ducking punches. You are a good dancer, Pugsy. You do good work.

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Pugsy
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Re: Why do people give up?

Post by Pugsy » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:50 am

jnk wrote:And I'm always impressed when you continue to be helpful, which can sometimes, of course, mean mentioning second-best alternatives to PAP that are better than doing nothing at all.
Yeah, but I also will bail when I think I am wasting my time (after a few tries with a 2 X 4). Sometimes I add stuff knowing the person won't listen but it might help someone else. Sometimes I just don't want to wear out my fingers so I don't want to try anymore. It all goes back to what I have had to accept about my tendency to want to rescue animals....it is hard pill to swallow but I can't save them all...no matter how much I want to. It breaks my heart when I can't help them. The feral cat that I feed every day..sometimes it has a wound on it...won't let me help. After 2 years I can only get within 10 feet of it before it run away. That is a huge improvement from when it first started showing up and I couldn't get within a 100 feet of it.

And yes, sometimes the alternatives are compromises. Some therapy is better than no therapy. Some pressure is better than no pressure. An hour on the machine is better than no hours on the machine.

I have noticed that we don't seem to have as many of the can't/won't "yeah buttheads" here anymore. Remember back 3 years ago when we seemed to have a lot of them? Those that would shoot down every idea without even trying the simplest idea to make things maybe work? Maybe things are improving ever so slowly....either that or they don't find their way here. I still remember Charles and a few others that I am sure I wasn't the only person here who wanted to reach through the computer and slap them up the side of the head with a 2 X 4.

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jnk
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Re: Why do people give up?

Post by jnk » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:05 am

Yeah, I remember. They seemed to be looking for confirmation that they had no need to try. I agree that the responses likely did more good for the lurkers than the original posters. And I think that when the tone can remain respectful (which I feel yours always is when two-by-fouring or bailing), even when what the poster is saying is completely ridiculous, that goes a long way toward drawing out the lurker who fears he will be ridiculed for bringing up his personal hang-up. Difficult line to walk, and you walk it well.

At least the feral cats who come to this board can lurk, see that this is mostly a helpful place rather than a denigrating one, and can learn things about the place that may help them feel free one day to come back here for help when they are ready, even if the next-door neighbors may have thrown rocks at them when prowling around over there.
Last edited by jnk on Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Suzjohnson
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Re: Why do people give up?

Post by Suzjohnson » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:08 am

jnk wrote:Come to think of it, maybe it was Carbonman who said it best:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38249&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
If ever you are about to throw the whole mess into a trash bin, read this thread. Carbonman's post is great but there are many responses that can encourage and firm up unsteady resolve. Thanks, jnk, for posting the link. I badly needed it this morning. Frustration over leaks is the biggest source of my occasional wish to chuck the whole lot but I have a stubborn streak a mile wide and flatly refuse to let a machine and some molded plastic get the better of me. So I allow myself 10 minutes of grousing and stomping and then read some reaffirming posts as in the referenced thread and move on.

Suz

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jen4700
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Re: Why do people give up?

Post by jen4700 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:09 am

Roch369 wrote:I've been on the CPAP for one month and been quite a struggle. I don't feel much better. Sleep for maybe an hour or two and wake up. Barely making the 4 hours. I'm trying to stick in there. May start some kind of therapy for CPAP adherence. It feels so unnatural. trying to get used to it. I keep moving around all night and when I look at the data most of the occurences are when i am awake. Once i wake up with mask - i have to take it off.
Hi Roch369 - you might want to repost this in a new topic with "help" in the subject line. There are many people who have felt the same way you have. IMHO I would suspect your mask is the issue, but it could also be your pressure. Please start a new thread so we can help you out!

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wilsonintexas
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Re: Why do people give up?

Post by wilsonintexas » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:25 am

In addition to all of the above, I sleep worse on CPAP. Before I would wake up once in a while... often enough that I wanted a large clock that I could read without my glasses so I would know if it was time to wake up or go back to sleep. This happened once every few weeks. Most nights I did not wake up.

since I started CPAP (102 days ago) I have been waking up between 5-6 times EVERY NIGHT. I have been more tired and felt worse that I did before CPAP. I know that I am better off, at least my O2 is not falling to 74, which can kill brain cells in a hurry.

I had to start nuvigil to stay awake and functioning.

I am tryingto work out what is waking me up..... last night I only remember being awake twice..... not to bad, but still worse that before I took to the hose.

It is a real battle to figure out what is happening.

I have a titration for an ASV machine in a few weeks...... I hope that it will help, but to be honest, I know it will be more active that what I have been on.

I am not ready to give up, but I understand why some do.....

It is hard when the thing that is suppose to help makes it worse.

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Re: Why do people give up?

Post by chunkyfrog » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:50 am

I wonder how many people credit prayer with helping them get over the humps?
I don't hear it mentioned here very much; but--it came to mind. . .

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Re: Why do people give up?

Post by kaiasgram » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:05 pm

wilsonintexas wrote: I have been more tired and felt worse than I did before CPAP. I know that I am better off, at least my O2 is not falling to 74, which can kill brain cells in a hurry. It is hard when the thing that is suppose to help makes it worse.
Wilson, thanks for posting this. I too stay on cpap because of my awareness that I'll be further damaging body and brain if I don't -- and that's the only reason since I too feel worse now than I did before cpap (I'm nearing 3 months on cpap). Then there's the financial devastation of having to buy cpap machine, equipment, etc. because my insurance didn't cover DME. Relationships have suffered a bit, too -- family members' perceptions are that I'm "making a big deal" out of trying to adjust to cpap, and that how unwell I'm feeling is mostly "in your head." Big, big hit on all fronts. My choice is to stay on treatment, but I totally understand why some people give up. I'm not saying that's a good or healthy choice, just that I understand it and don't judge it.
49er wrote:Frankly, I am tired of people being portrayed as wimps and not willing to put up with discomfort or the just do it philosophy. I don't understand why it is so hard to have empathy for people who are struggling for reasons that may not seem obvious.
49'er -- me too! What helps me deal with the discouragement I feel when I see those judgmental comments is my belief that even the people who post those messages do have the intention of helping. They apparently feel that using words like "quitter, loser, wimp, etc." (I've seen all three of these words and more on this forum) will motivate others to keep trying. It's a different way of trying to help, I guess! Personally I think empathy goes a lot farther but we all see things differently. The other thing that helps me look past the critical posts is what you said -- on balance there is far more help, support and encouragement than there is scolding and judging. I also appreciate that so much, and it's why I'm still on the forum and still on cpap.

To the original poster of this thread -- I hope all the responses to your question -- Why do people give up? -- help shed some light on the answers.

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Re: Why do people give up?

Post by mnealuf » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:15 pm

I am about 7 weeks into my CPAP adventure and I am one of the "unlucky" ones that really struggle. I still hate it, hate everything about it. I have tried ~4 masks so far and currently using swift nasal pillows and my AHI is ~3 but with a high leakage rate. (I think thru mouth) . Pressures is at 12cm-h2o ( prescribed pressure) so the machine is "keeping up". I made a hose mender, tried different masks, adjusted masks......I sleep way worst with it then without and and at some point I cant function with just a couple hours of poor sleep per night and I put the machine aside. I know long term I need to treat it and lately I sleep with machine "most" of the time but every couple days I go 'naked" and catch back up on rest. As far as the wimpy term I pretty couldn't disagree anymore. IMO, some people adjust easier and its easy to throw stones. I am not a very intelligent man and put myself thru engineering school by studying ~14-16 hrs a day for 6 years so I am not scared of "work". When I say its hard and not going well I can guarantee you it is not because I am scared or unwilling to put effort into it. I also know the long term negative effects and I shall keep swinging at the fences until I win this battle, but man it just sucks some days. Thanks for letting me vent, I love this site.

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Re: Why do people give up?

Post by purple » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:08 pm

ddk: I do not know the terms of your rental. If it is an medical insurance rental, then I am pretty sure that it is most likely that when the rental period is up, and you have proven that you have used the machine, "Compliance." Then the machine is YOURS. You own it..

At least most medical insurance companies emulate some portion of the Medicare policy. Medicare is a 13 month rent to own (the patient is to own), which I think is based upon Medicare does not want to shell out the full price of the machine and not have patient use the machine, then Medicare not have any recourse to recover the machine, or prevent a full dollar loss. After the 13 months, the patient owns the machine.

If that is your concern, then you might check on the exact rules from wherever you are renting the machine.

jnk
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Re: Why do people give up?

Post by jnk » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:37 pm

I believe that PAP therapy is easy for some, harder for others, extraordinarily difficult for a number, and absolutely impossible for some.

In fact, I believe that a certain segment of plain-OSA sufferers have a brain that will never, ever let them sleep with plastic and fabric around their head and with pressure in their airway. Some use terms like hyper-sensitive to describe them. It is not their fault. It is how their brain is wired. And they may very well end up doing better with some other version of treatment for dealing with OSA. Comfort features and trying different masks and optimizing pressure and going to bilevel and all that whole nine yards doesn't always solve all the problems for everyone, no matter how hard they try. They may do better with Provent or a MAD or surgery or whatever.

On the other hand, I also believe that an indivdual will never truly know if he is in that category or not until he resolves himself to sleeping all night every night strapped up and pressurized, and does so for several weeks, in order to see if it is possible to win his personal battle of wills with his own brain to convince it that plastic, fabric, and pressure can make it safe to sleep.

I don't think anyone finds people "wimpy" or "lazy," or any other name, when those people are willing to listen to the voices of reason and experience and willing to try things and to put some effort into it. In fact, I think those people are very much admired on this board, and some of those who have had to fight longest and hardest to make PAP work for them have eventually become some of the wisest and most respected members of the forum, and the most helpful to others fighting similar battles.

In contrast, there have also been a few, less common now than maybe they once were, who came to this board after one bad night and called the entire treatment bogus and then refused to try or seriously discuss anything suggested to them. If they couldn't get better sleep their very first night using their very first mask, they held that up as proof that PAP would never work for them and that there was no reason to try anything else. Maybe they were trolls. Maybe not. But sometimes, a little verbal "2X4," or "tough-love" "plain talk," HAS seemed to help turn it around for a few like that, and they have then repeatedly thanked the people who chose to take them on to challenge the beliefs they stubbornly held on to at the time and to do so to their face. The sting of the slap brought them around, apparently. Snoredog sure seemed to save a few that way, and I was amazed to see it.

But I've also seen plain talk seriously hurt people's feelings and drive them away. That is because, unfortunately, we never know what words from which member with which tone may do the most good for any particular newcomer. The drawback of forum help is the lack of the visual and verbal cues that tip us off to how our words are being received. The balancing nice thing about a forum is that a newcomer can, if he has the ability, choose to ignore what he doesn't find helpful and choose to use what he does find helpful from those posters whom he can stomach.

I think the common enemy of us all, and especially those who "give up," is not individual posters' tone or word choice as much as it is the outside medical system that way too often contains less-than-helpful docs and less-than-helpful equipment suppliers. That's enough to discourage anyone even when they aren't feeling brain-dead from years of bad sleep.

I applaud cpap.com for being helpful enough to support a forum like this one so that people can get practical help here from fellow patients even when they have been unable to get that kind of help from the medical people they have paid to be helpful.

As for prayer, I generally limit my discussions of that to PMs instead of public posts. Just my choice. I wouldn't want the atheists to feel unwelcome here, since they deserve good PAP therapy just as much as those of us who pray. Right, chunkyfrog?