How can I keep my mouth closed?

jweeks wrote:

higha56@gmail.com wrote:I am a new user and fighting a battle every night. I would like to use the nose pillow rather than the full face mask but can't keep my mouth closed. I have the headgear and have tightened it all the way. Has anyone tried taping their mouth shut? Any suggestions? Thanks

Hi,

I am 4 years in, and I still fight this battle from time to time. I use the Puresom Ruby chin strap. That alone doesn't do the trick. I also use 3M micropore tape (2 inch wide), and that alone doesn't do the trick. I end up having to do both. I am a little concerned at times about mouth taping, but the ability to use a nasal pillow mask is worth the risk to me. I simply haven't found any mask other than the Swift LT that works for me. Without CPAP, I am all but disabled, so I have to do what I can to make this work.

If you do try this, here are 2 tips...(1) double the tape over at the ends to create small flaps at each end of the tape to make is easier to get ahold of when you want to remove it, (2) put something on your lips to keep the tape from sticking, such as heavy lip balm or gasoline (to avoid having the tape tear skin off of your lips). Males will want to shave before doing this, otherwise the tape will not seal well.

-john-

I must be tired, I thought you said "gasoline".

jweeks wrote:

Chikorita wrote:A follow on question is what happens if for some reason the machine fails and your mouth is taped/strapped closed?
Can you still breath through the mask although with difficulty?

Hi,

That is an excellent question to ask. Masks have an anti-asphyxiation valve (or similar feature) to keep you from getting in trouble if you have a power outage or the machine fails.

Absolutely, positively, wrong, and potentially FATAL advice.

Full Face Masks (FFM) have an anti-asphyxia valve. Nasal masks usually DO NOT have anti-asphyxia valves.

If you tape your mouth shut and use a mask without an anti-asphyxia valve, you will still be able to breathe if the machine shuts off because the air will just flow through the fan and out through the air filters. The problem is that you will be rebreathing your exhaled air. That's why they call the valve on FFMs anti-ASPHYXIA valves. With your mouth closed, it's a bit like putting a plastic bag over your head and breathing in and out of it.

You'll probably wake up if this happens, but that's not 100% certain. Low oxygen and high CO2 environments can render people unconscious without them noticing anything even when they're awake. Add extra risk if you're taking meds, drinking, or have other serious medical problems.

In theory, if you use a nasal mask, and the power goes off, your reflexes will cause you to breathe through your mouth. That's why nasal masks don't usually have anti-asphyxia valves.

All home CPAP masks have vent holes to let your exhaled CO2 escape and to let fresh O2 come in from the blower unit. These holes do not let enough air escape unless there is a certain minimum amount of pressure in the mask. If your CPAP shuts down, you won't usually have enough pressure in the mask to clear out the CO2. It's like breathing in and out of a plastic bag with some small holes in it.

There is also extra risk of asphyxiation asphyxiation and aspiration pneumonia if you get nauseous during the night and can't get your tape off in time.

Some people do still decide to take the risks of taping. Some make extra efforts to be sure they can get the tape off quickly, but that won't help if you don't wake up at all. Make your own informed decision.

opticalpopsicle wrote:I must be tired, I thought you said "gasoline".

Hi,

Eeek, I meant vasoline. I just updated to Mountain Lion on my Mac, and Windows 7 on my PC, and both of them have this automatic spelling correction that picks the oddest things. I have a sight problem (a side effect of OSA, BTW) where I don't see letters clearly. I count on the spell checker flagging things, but this new autocorrect simply puts dumb words in without telling me that it made the change.

-john-

Don't get all frightened by the "asphyxia" risk. I'd say it is very low. In fact, I don't think there is a single verified case.

I've tried all kinds of things. The usual chin strap did nothing for me. Then I started taping. Different tapes. Different directions to tape.

I found that blue painters tape gets wet (sweat and/saliva) and comes loose in short time. Horizontal taping DOES NOT work.

I found a website that recommend small strips of medical tape applied vertically (taping upper lip to lower) at 3-4 places. I found that water-proof band-aids would stick the entire night with no leaking. Just cut the gauze part out and use the sticky ends. I apply vertically all across mouth and then one long strip of medical tape horizontally.

I finally got tired of taping up every night. Very easy to pull off mask but not easy to answer a telephone call. So I gave in and switched to full face mask.

VikingGnome wrote:Don't get all frightened by the "asphyxia" risk. I'd say it is very low. In fact, I don't think there is a single verified case.

If a CPAP user dies quietly in his sleep, no one is going to investigate. Your friendly public servant coroner is going to say, "poor sick guy on one of them ventilator things finally kicked the bucket. Well, at least he's out of his misery now."

Even if they are smart enough to figure out that taping is what killed him, do you think they're going to tell the survivors, "your idiot father killed himself by taping his mouth closed."?

It might be worth the risk for some, but it's irresponsible to say there is no risk. Do you really think the mask manufacturers put the "anti-ASPHYXIA" valve in FFMs just for grins?

I have more risk to be hit by lightening than dying with taped mouth on CPAP. And electricity goes off at least once a month. I wake up almost instantly and simply remove my mask. In fact, one night my hose got kinked and I was getting much lower pressure than normal. Even then I woke up. That change in pressure was enough to wake me up. Why do you think people with obstructive sleep apnea are waking up all night. Every time they stop breathing they wake up and take a breath. It's a reflex.

We are biological wired to respond to conditions of high carbon dioxide and low oxygen. That's why it's so hard to commit suicide with a plastic bag over your head. The oxygen starvation will finally get to you.

I think MORE VALID risks for mouth taping are:
> tape comes loose and you inhale the piece into your trachea.
> intruder comes through window and you can't SCREAM
> tape removal tears off some lip skin
> etc.

VikingGnome wrote:I have more risk to be hit by lightening than dying with taped mouth on CPAP. And electricity goes off at least once a month. I wake up almost instantly and simply remove my mask. In fact, one night my hose got kinked and I was getting much lower pressure than normal. Even then I woke up. That change in pressure was enough to wake me up. Why do you think people with obstructive sleep apnea are waking up all night. Every time they stop breathing they wake up and take a breath. It's a reflex.

We are biological wired to respond to conditions of high carbon dioxide and low oxygen. That's why it's so hard to commit suicide with a plastic bag over your head. The oxygen starvation will finally get to you.

Google "confined space training." In industrial settings, people walk in to areas with low O2 and high CO2 and die all the time. They often become unconscious without ever noticing anything is wrong with the air.

You have an anti-asphyxia valve in your full face mask. This is an entirely different condition from having the machine stop blowing with a nasal mask and your mouth taped.

Also, if you kink your hose and do have a nasal mask with mouth taped, you will not be able to inhale and exhale very easily. Your body tends to react to no airflow pretty quickly. Once again, this is entirely different from taping. With taping and no air blowing, you breathe more or less normally, but the O2 level drops slowly, creating the deadly conditions that kill people in confined spaces with no warning.

Poligrip denture adhesive strips, between your lips. Safe and effective.

What a relief to see that others have tried the tape method. My family thought I was nuts. Anyway I have tried the full face masks and I still open my mouth up anyway and my mouth gets so dry it makes me cough and wakes me up. Have TMJ and chin straps bother me too much. So I thought I would try the poligrip tape and see if it works. My opinion is that the mask manufacturers have a long way to go yet.

higha56@gmail.com wrote:I am a new user and fighting a battle every night. I would like to use the nose pillow rather than the full face mask but can't keep my mouth closed. I have the headgear and have tightened it all the way. Has anyone tried taping their mouth shut? Any suggestions? Thanks

Reply,

I been doing it for more than a year and a half with my chinstrap with good treatment results:



It comes in three sizes including Extra Large. My head vertical circumference is 26". I can use a Large and an Extra Large. They are adjustable and stretchable.
I just tighten it to bring my jaws' teeth together. No more tension. Some posters complained about TM Joint pain.

http://www.amazon.com/CareFusion-Adjust ... 73-8951150

Have you read my recent report:


Taping mouth to prevent Dry Mouth is a MYTH.

Taping your lips don't stop air from entering your mouth from the nose and throat, i.e. from the "back side" (pharynx). When you swallow your saliva which is generated in the salivary glands around the mouth, and then you swallow it (also during sleep), air must come in from the back to replace the swallowed saliva's volume because your lips are taped closed and air can't come in from the front to do it. So this air circulation, from the "back side", will dry your mouth in spite of taping it. It could be to a lesser degree than from an untaped mouth also b/c the air from the pharynx is moister. It is clear that taping your mouth to prevent a Dry Mouth, completely, is not true. It seems to be a myth ( some Russians are pushing this myth). There is no way to prevent some air going thru your mouth.

You better off with a Chinstrap which would prevent opening the mouth very wide but would allow some lips- opening to let air to be breathed from the front. However, using a Chinstrap instead of a full face mask would cause the XPAP's treatment to be effected by the mouth leak.