OT - Bipolar Disorder

I think kTeague is right on the money, as usual i might add.

Yes, there are solid diagnoses and brain chemistry problems. But its a mania in this country due to the pharmacology mill much of the time.

Serotonin is also a key factor. But you have to trace that back and find out WHY youre low (did you know its all produced in your intestine and not your brain or in another organ???)

They are just now making correlations between cause and effect as to what causes what and what the flow chart is on a lot of this.

FOr example, a possible flowchart: apnea, low 02 levels, high excitotoxins, food allergies, gastro problems, leaky gut syndrome, low serotonin,
heart problems, bipolar (or whatever).

See, the key is what is causing what, not treating one symptom as if it were in a vaccuum.

Having said that, im a BIG believer in meds IF they treat something specific. I use clonapin, and ive recently learned that far from being "addictive" the leading pioneer in fibromyalgia maintains that it simply is a miracle drug that for some stops excitotoxins from destroying brain neurons much like preventing a seizure.

Naturally, this pertains to a small percentage of people, but even so, thats all of us. We all have some special health problem, and we all have to be our own
best doctors since our normal doctor spends five minutes with us, and probably zero minutes thinking through our problems in terms of a causative flow chart.

Last, dont forget google. For research, you have the worlds wisdom at your fingertips.

kteague wrote:DreamStalker - A member of the forum, CollegeGirl, has talked about her experience with her diagnosis and medication and how treating her OSA resolved the symptoms that brought on her diagnosis.

Bipolar must be a frequently diagnosed illness, as I've known quite a few people with that diagnosis up close and personal. (And known a few that even my untrained eye knew should be diagnosed.) In one family they ran the spectrum in severity of symptoms. One was socially maladjusted and wore the nerves out of everyone who dealt with him. The rest were of near normal function with endearing personalities though affected to differing degrees. In two other families, prolonged manic episodes resulted in breakdowns requiring hospitalization. Both of those persons went on to be high achievers and one is an advocate and public speaker on the subject. Seems there is no one-size-fits-all. In another family, one person's mania took them to the point of having a distorted perception of reality, and woe unto the unsuspecting person who believed her convincing web of imaginations.

I think deciding on medication could depend on if there was a need to prevent or mitigate a crisis. Or if the person truly is miserable living in their skin and sinking their own ship. I wouldn't want to prolong their misery just to avoid taking a med. But short of that, natural remedies and a thorough medical evaluation to try to pinpoint a treatable cause seems a reasonable first approach. Sleep disorders, thyroid dysfunction, medication side effect, nutritional deficiencies, allergies, and hormonal imbalance would be at the top of my list to investigate. Hope things work out well with whatever path is chosen. Do let us know if a non pharmaceutical solution is found.

I suppose I can explain why my sudden interest in this condition. I have recently met someone who was hospitalized and diagnosed with bipolar in the past and is trying very hard to make a go of it without professional medical help or drugs due to a lack of insurance. I gave up my own health insurance late last year and I'm learning to do more with alternative health approaches myself.

Anyway, my interest is to learn what to expect, how to respond to a potential event, and how I might be able to help her manage her condition with alternative approaches if at all possible. She seems to be a very wonderful person and quite normal to me so far. Of course I think I'm normal too and yet many might say that I've lost my mind

Thanks kteague, Carol, David, and everyone else for the great info.

To be hospitalized without insurance suggests to me that it was an involuntary hospitalization. That may mean she was a danger to herself or others. I would think that would indicate a need for close contact with a mental health professional.

DreamStalker wrote: So I'm requesting any links and blogs that may provide bipolar info from an alternative perspective or just any experience you may have with friends or loved ones with this condition (causes, treatment, how to deal with bipolar people, are drugs really the only solution?, etc.).

Hey, DreamStalker... I'm glad to see you back.

One alternative therapy for BiPolar disorder is based on a most interesting theory. That theory contends BiPolar swings are an escalating domino-effect of multiple interrelated but dysregulated human rhythms. Specifically social rhythms and circadian rhythms are central triggers. Thus properly managing social rhythms, interpersonal behavior response patterns, and consequent disturbances in circadian rhythms are key toward avoiding/managing the escalation of BiPolar swings.

Here's a search link: Interpersonal and Social Rhythm Therapy for BiPolar Disorder

SleepingUgly wrote:To be hospitalized without insurance suggests to me that it was an involuntary hospitalization. That may mean she was a danger to herself or others. I would think that would indicate a need for close contact with a mental health professional.

Actually, I don't know if she had insurance at the time of her hospitalization or whether it was voluntary or not. I'll see if she is willing to discuss it this weekend. In any case, she doesn't have insurance now. I'm hoping she has been misdiagnosed and was just flim-flammed by the health industry as so many of us usually are.

-SWS wrote:

DreamStalker wrote: So I'm requesting any links and blogs that may provide bipolar info from an alternative perspective or just any experience you may have with friends or loved ones with this condition (causes, treatment, how to deal with bipolar people, are drugs really the only solution?, etc.).

Hey, DreamStalker... I'm glad to see you back.

One alternative therapy for BiPolar disorder is based on a most interesting theory. That theory contends BiPolar swings are an escalating domino-effect of multiple interrelated but dysregulated human rhythms. Specifically social rhythms and circadian rhythms are central triggers. Thus properly managing social rhythms, interpersonal behavior response patterns, and consequent disturbances in circadian rhythms are key toward avoiding/managing the escalation of BiPolar swings.

Here's a search link: Interpersonal and Social Rhythm Therapy for BiPolar Disorder

Glad to see you as well.

That is an interesting theory, I can certainly relate to the daylight savings disruption and social stability sounds good for anybody. Thanks for the alternative management strategy.

Have you had personal experience with this approach? Do they have to maintain a "strict" schedule of daily activities? ... same job doing same thing, etc.

DreamStalker wrote: That is an interesting theory, I can certainly relate to the daylight savings disruption and social stability sounds good for anybody. Thanks for the alternative management strategy.

Have you had personal experience with this approach? Do they have to maintain a "strict" schedule of daily activities? ... same job doing same thing, etc.

I don't recall exactly how I first happened across that information. No first-hand experience/knowledge with BiPolar disorder. I simply thought the theory and treatment were interesting enough to continue reading after I first encountered the subject---yup... a warped sense of reading entertainment here.

One thing that struck me as interesting about the treatment was a suggestion for people with BiPoloar disorder to keep a log of social interactions they found unsettling----specifically unsettling enough to keep them awake with ruminations and/or mood alterations. Those events are considered important catalysts for the domino effect of sleep and mood rhythm dysregulation. So those interactions need to be managed toward minimizing/avoiding these particular BiPolar-swing catalysts. Unfortunately I have no idea how good or bad this theory is in terms of efficacy. Intuitively it sounds promising, at least in some cases.

DreamStalker wrote:Actually, I don't know if she had insurance at the time of her hospitalization or whether it was voluntary or not. I'll see if she is willing to discuss it this weekend. In any case, she doesn't have insurance now. I'm hoping she has been misdiagnosed and was just flim-flammed by the health industry as so many of us usually are.

Yes, it would be good if she would disclose what led to her hospitalization. The threshold for being hospitalized is much higher than it used to be, suggesting much greater degree of impairment for hospitalization than was the case in decades past.

-SWS wrote:

DreamStalker wrote: That is an interesting theory, I can certainly relate to the daylight savings disruption and social stability sounds good for anybody. Thanks for the alternative management strategy.

Have you had personal experience with this approach? Do they have to maintain a "strict" schedule of daily activities? ... same job doing same thing, etc.

I don't recall exactly how I first happened across that information. No first-hand experience/knowledge with BiPolar disorder. I simply thought the theory and treatment were interesting enough to continue reading after I first encountered the subject---yup... a warped sense of reading entertainment here.

One thing that struck me as interesting about the treatment was a suggestion for people with BiPoloar disorder to keep a log of social interactions they found unsettling----specifically unsettling enough to keep them awake with ruminations and/or mood alterations. Those events are considered important catalysts for the domino effect of sleep and mood rhythm dysregulation. So those interactions need to be managed toward minimizing/avoiding these particular BiPolar-swing catalysts. Unfortunately I have no idea how good or bad this theory is in terms of efficacy. Intuitively it sounds promising, at least in some cases.

So a common pattern is appearing to me in the association with sleep disruption. I had read a long while back of the relationship between the natural sleep cycle and the serotonin/melatonin rhythm. So I guess dysregulation can occur both ways? Hmmmm .... and she did mention that she stays up late and gets up very early.

And then there is sunlight and dietary tryptophan and other nutrients/vitamins which may come into play as well with serotonin and mealtonin production (plus what David mentioned). Interesting.

Thanks again everyone.

DreamStalker wrote:Hmmmm .... and she did mention that she stays up late and gets up very early.

Decreased need for sleep is a symptom of bipolar disorder...

SleepingUgly wrote:

DreamStalker wrote:Hmmmm .... and she did mention that she stays up late and gets up very early.

Decreased need for sleep is a symptom of bipolar disorder...

Yes. Yes yes, I noted the association. The question is whether the sleep issue is really a symptom or the cause, or both as a positive feedback loop?

I'm beginning to develop a working hypothesis that I can begin to research.

There seems to be a lot of possible causes and/or triggers. A brief search on excitotoxins brought up the relationship to glutamate, as in MSG and gluten, which for some people are allergens. I don't know if she has dietary allergies or gut problems, but certainly worth looking into. I don't think she has OSA, but I don't know that as we've not discussed that subject.

Isn't the complexity of the human body just fascinating?

DreamStalker wrote: The question is whether the sleep issue is really a symptom or the cause, or both as a positive feedback loop?

It's a symptom and it can exacerbate the condition. Dr. Kay Redfield Jamison, who has bipolar disorder, writes frequently about the need to make sure she gets enough sleep, lest she become manic.

I do not believe that decreased sleep can cause a bona fide bipolar diagnosis. In the short run, severe sleep deprivation can cause psychosis, but I don't think we're talking about a short term, acute problem that resolved, are we?

SleepingUgly wrote:

DreamStalker wrote: The question is whether the sleep issue is really a symptom or the cause, or both as a positive feedback loop?

It's a symptom and it can exacerbate the condition. Dr. Kay Redfield Jamison, who has bipolar disorder, writes frequently about the need to make sure she gets enough sleep, lest she become manic.

I do not believe that decreased sleep can cause a bona fide bipolar diagnosis. In the short run, severe sleep deprivation can cause psychosis, but I don't think we're talking about a short term, acute problem that resolved, are we?

I don't know her that well yet, so I can't answer your detailed questions.

Yes, we all know sleep is very important for both the body and mind.

Thanks for the Dr. Kay Redfield Jamison note, I will look her up.

DreamStalker wrote:So I'm requesting any links and blogs that may provide bipolar info from an alternative perspective or just any experience you may have with friends or loved ones with this condition (causes, treatment, how to deal with bipolar people, are drugs really the only solution?, etc.).

Thanks.

I am a person with Bipolar disorder, but prefer the old designation of manic depression. I believe it to be more accurate and descriptive. I am 59 years old and have been depressed my whole life. In 2005 a "nervous breakdown" led to a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. In a manic state I had spent myself into bankruptcy. My depression has always been severe, resulting in self medicating with drugs and alcohol, numerous psychiatrists, hospitalizations, meds specific for depression balanced with meds for mood stabilization, ECT. The depression leads to suicidal ideation, the mania to spending, shouting at people on the street, and extreme agitation. My manic periods are overshadowed by depression so I never have a decreased need for sleep. I can easily sleep 18 hours a a day. The causes seem to be a chemical imbalance in the brain, in my family it has hit the last two generations that I know of. My brother committed suicide because of misdiagnosis with the wrong medicines prescribed. I don't do psychotherapy, but have spent many hours in the past on the couch. I don't think psychotherapy is of much use except when you need to deal with something specific. It has been handy to take my partner to see the psychiatrist with me when I'm having problems as she can describe my behavior. I see her every other month. Please treat me like you would anyone else, with kindness and caring, compassion. If you see signs of things going amiss, talk to me or my partner, call my doctor. She can't talk to you about me, but you can tell her what you think. I am responsible for getting treatment and religiously taking my meds, but sometimes have no control over my emotions. You do not have to take abuse from me, but try to remember it's the mental illness in control. Drugs are probably the only solution, or the new, humane ECT. I would be unbearably sad and suicidal were it not for the zoloft (antidepressant), lamictal (mood stabilizer), klonopin (anxiety and mood stabilizer). After my nervous breakdown in 2005 I thought I had a stroke I was so messed up. I couldn't take care of finances, get myself to appointments, remember words, work- even housework. I am on disability my mental state is so fragile. My friends "take care of me"- they pay attention to how I'm feeling, they understand if my affect is flat, they are kind. Maybe I am more work than most friends, but I try to repay by being there for them, by returning their love. It's all quite profound. There is no cure, there is only trying to maintain, stay aware of where I am- there is no "being on top of things". In the prime of my life I gave up my sex life in a trade off for the drugs that keep me functioning. I am very susceptible to the meds effects on libido. I have spent many thousands of dollars on meds, doctors, hospitals and it continues to be an expensive illness in terms of money (in terms of everything). I have had the police involved during several shouting matches on the street- they are always very kind and compassionate when I explain I am bipolar and manic. They ask if I'm on my meds, make sure I'm ok, calm me down. Please be compassionate, I don't mean to be on the pity pot, I do my best, but this is a powerful mental illness.

By the way I have a BSN. I find some routine important, but have learned to be more flexible over the years by putting my trust in my roommate to take care of me.
In my relationship she leaves me to self comfort and we do not let this illness control our relationship. By this I mean if I am having problems I see the doctor or talk to a friend. My partner does not bear the brunt of things and does not have to coddle and console me. She expects me to keep the house clean, the laundry done, walk the dog, pay my own bills, take my meds, not lean on her, but be a proper partner to her.

Thanks for your input Mary.

You are not a pity pot. I admire your strength to push past your illness and live a rewarding life.

It does appear that in any case, a bipolar condition should not be managed alone.

Best wishes to you.

Well I finally got the whole story and thought I would update here.

She has had issues with depression for most of her life and said that it runs in her family (mother, brother, and herself). She also mentioned that her and her mother are both worrywarts but that she herself has now learned to let go of things she cannot control.

Anyway, her doctor Rx'd her Cymbalta for her depression about 3 years ago and that is when the mania began -- and after trying to commit suicide she was hospitalized and diagnosed with bipolar. So she was then prescribed with lithium and she said that turned her into a complete zombie. So she gradually weaned herself off both drugs and tries to deal with her depression as best she can au natural.

Basically, she is not sure if the bipolar is an accurate diagnosis but it is now on her medical records.

Also, she did say that a couple of nights of poor/deficient sleep can throw her into a state of depression.