OT:Good Calories, Bad Calories....

Too often; conventional wisdom--isn't.

chunkyfrog wrote:Too often; conventional wisdom--isn't.

And perhaps just as often, non-conventional wisdom--isn't.

That's what makes it so confusing.

And fun to discuss!

I still think most things seemed to be marked by extremism. ATkins says no carbs, that has proven unhealthy, somebody says low fat (no fat is impossible, back in the day, I tried) is the thing and so we go to the extreme and Jan is right, our bodies do need fat. Now somebody says lots of animal fat, it does no harm and so what do we do, gorge on animal fat.

I figure that moderation in all things is wise. Eat in a healthy way and although there is some disagreement on what that is, I think there are some standards. Janknitz did get it right, our ancestors ate food they caught or harvested, their diets were much healthier because it wasn processed. I think the opinion on processed food is pretty uniform or at least what I've read has been. Most processed food is high in sugar, etc and most of the nutrients from whatever it was made from have been removed. I unfortunately, really haven't cut out all the processed food. I will still eat canned veggies if I'm lacking in time and cereals. I guess I won't conquer Rome in a day, LOL.

I still don't think eating a lot of saturated fat is healthy but let's face it, you'd have to be a vegan to really get rid of a substantial amount of saturated fat. Even fish, with it's healthy omega 3s have saturated fat. However, limiting it can be done. You can use other oils, i.e. canola or EVOO and still have sufficient fat in your diet. And like I said, I like a nice juicy steak now and again. (*sigh* and my favorite is ribeye, talk about saturated fat!!!)

I just think there is a middle of the road. I don't throw carbs out, I try to eat healthier carbs, fruit, veggies etc, brown vs white rice etc. I try to limit some fat but I do eat meat and could never stand being a vegan. Vegan works well for some but I'd get tired of being a vegan. Being a vegetarian might be doable but like I said, I love ribeye now and again. I do find when I eat this way and avoid fried foods (tear my stomach up) I feel a lot better.

However, people will eat the way they believe is right. I guess its the differing opinions that keep life interesting

jnk wrote:

Janknitz wrote: . . . THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WAS DONE WITH THE LOW FAT DIET!!!!

And two wrongs don't make a right, so hopefully the lesson has been learned and that won't be done again, with conclusions being proclaimed before the proof is at hand. Right?

Janknitz wrote: . . . Now, 40 years later, the harm of the low fat diet is finally being recognized. . . .

By some. Jury is still out, according to most. Right? I mean, it wasn't the lack of fat, but the increase in carbs that the present proponents of low-carb are putting down, right?

Janknitz wrote:. . . the whole of human history ate whole food, high saturated fat, and the rates of diabetes, heart disease, and cancer were very low . . .

Pretty broad statements. Unproveable assumptions, in my opinion. The whole of human history is a long time. And people all over the world have eaten in very different ways, haven't they? I mean, people have been eating grains as staples for thousands of years, I believe.

As for the history of disease, in many parts of the earth and for centuries at a time, few lived long enough to die of any of those kinds of diseases, as I understand it, (even if those diseases had been diagnosable, which they weren't). But, hey, I'll concede the point. I wasn't there, myself; so I admit I don't know.

Janknitz wrote: . . . It's the low fat diet that is the fad, the craze, and the failed experiment.

Let us, then, not replace one unproven fad/craze/experiment with another. Right?

Because the low-fat zealots were almost as sure of themselves as the low-carb zealots are now. Yes?

BTW, I am glad your great-grandma lived a long time. Did she live the sendentary lifestyle so common today?

Atkins never said No Carbs, have you ever even read the book? and no it wasn't proven unhealthy unless done completely incorrect. Here is a link to the basic idea if you wish to read it the Results section is off because of poor studies being sited and the normal dogma twisting but the approach is what's key.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/atkins-diet/MY00648

Given the time frame of when his diet plan came out and the info available to him he laid out the best plan he could for SUPER Obese people and Diabetics. Is his diet up to date? That I do not know as I have not read the new book. I have many books on my plate though and it will be one of them. But I wonder why MAD or a Modified Atkins Diet is being used to treat epilepsy if its unhealthy?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22419282

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22425426

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22332768

http://atkinsforseizures.com/

People say the same about Vegetarianism that it's unhealthy and blah blah blah the same as Atkins.

Eat how you wish and if it works for you KUDOS!

jnk wrote: Part of my personal confusion is that if people who cut down on carbs also turn out often to cut down on overall calories, it seems to me that it would be difficult to prove anecdotally (for any one person) that any resultant good came from the change in carb-to-fat ratio as opposed to the overall reduction in calories. And likewise, if the people who attempt to cut out fat often end up increasing overall calories, it seems difficult to prove anecdotally (for any one person) that the increase in calories was not the culprit more than the change in the fat-to-carb ratio, as far as any bad results.

Advocates of low carb eating admit without any hesitation that the resulting weight loss may indeed result, at least in part, from an overall reduction in calories. However, they believe that reducing carbs (and especially those that hit the bloodstream fastest) reduces high concentrations of insulin that facilitate fat storage and retard its release. In that way low carb makes it easier to eat less and move more, balancing energy input and output more naturally and without the endless application of pure brute force willpower, an effort that most of us can sustain for a while but that fails us in the end.

PST wrote: Advocates of low carb eating admit without any hesitation that the resulting weight loss may indeed result, at least in part, from an overall reduction in calories. However, they believe that reducing carbs (and especially those that hit the bloodstream fastest) reduces high concentrations of insulin that facilitate fat storage and retard its release. In that way low carb makes it easier to eat less and move more, balancing energy input and output more naturally and without the endless application of pure brute force willpower, an effort that most of us can sustain for a while but that fails us in the end.

Janknitz might very well have exemplified that with this account:

Janknitz wrote: Yes, I put the food in my mouth that made me obese--I take full responsibility for that. But a physiological process was involved and only finding the right dietary approach had a chance of success.

I will Tell you that once you "get over the hump" when starting a low carb diet (that is getting over the lousy way you feel when your body converts from burning glucose to burning ketones), no willpower is required. Cravings, hunger, blood sugar lows are GONE. Lately I've been having some issues with not eating ENOUGH, which causes some of its own problems. I'm in the crazy position of having to work hard to eat MORE calories and fat each day!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=75624&p=693078#p693078

If the low carb diet reduced her caloric intake by reducing appetitie, then appetite logically becomes an important comparison parameter among candidate diets---at least in my way of analyzing. Nutrition, health risk, and ease of maintaining target weight are three other important comparison parmeters on my criteria list.

jnk wrote:Does the wording of this news article sound balanced to most of us?:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=116873&page=1

Thanks, jnk. I was looking for a succinct article with pros and cons to forward to my wife. That article fits the bill nicely.

Again, I'd like to thank everyone who shared information and opinions in this thread. It was exactly what I needed. This kind and generous place in cyberspace is amazing.

-SWS wrote:

Again, I'd like to thank everyone who shared information and opinions in this thread. It was exactly what I needed. This kind and generous place in cyberspace is amazing.

That has the sound of finis. So what did you decide to eat?

VVV wrote:That has the sound of finis. So what did you decide to eat?

Believe it or not I haven't decided yet.

That's not so much indecisiveness at work as it is a commitment to analyze important decisions. I'm presently considering a new and hopefully healthier way of life. If I were shopping for a new geographic region---one in which to spend the remainder of my life---I would not allow myself to arrive at such an important decision with haste. The same is true as I consider a new eating lifestyle. The opinions, anecdotes, and links presented in this and other threads are the equivalent of my finally having checked out an armload of books at the library.

My wife and I presently alternate between eating "conventional-wisdom healthy" and "conventional-wisdom unhealthy"---both with higher carbs and sugar than I suspect is right for our metabolisms. I wouldn't be surprised if we decide to try a low-carb, high-fat diet in the upcoming weeks or months. I still have plenty of reading to do. And I haven't yet gone through the paradigm exercise of attempting to critically attack the low-carb, high-fat school-of-thought.

If we decide to try a low-carb, high-fat diet, then we would commit to evaluating that lifestyle for no less than half-a-year. I now have plenty of information, opinions, and anecdotes thanks to the generous offerings in our various nutrition and diet threads. I can't repeat the words "thank you" enough.

Well, I succeeded in stepping on someone's toes which I truly didn't mean to do. I looked at some information on Atkins and carbs are so severely limited in the induction phase that you could hardly eat more than a vegetable or two before you ran out of carbs. Basically makes things carb free. Lack of vitamins and minerals, etc. Atkins is a more extreme diet and I don't think you can refute that when it basically restricts several groups of foods. If you spend a bit of time on the internet, you will find Atkins is safe or Atkin's is unsafe and each and every source is a reputable source. Certainly your Mayo clinic references would be considered reliable.

As I said, I'm a middle of the roader. I take a little of the good stuff from everything and if I were to do a low carb, it probably would be south beach which isn't as extreme as Atkins. Now, if you have success or have had success with Atkins, go for it. You have to eat the way you feel the best. I do weight watchers which basically means I can eat any plan I want just as long as I don't run out of points. If I want I can drink olive oil or eat lard as long as I don't run out of points. Yucky idea but true. It is and will always be, calories in/calories out.

I think on food, we are all influenced by different things and by our background and it is unlikely that we will ever agree. We can throw sources back and forth and I doubt we will change either one's mind. I figure this is one of those issues we will all have to agree to disagree and I doubt that any of us are all right or all wrong, myself included.

hades161 wrote:Atkins never said No Carbs, have you ever even read the book? and no it wasn't proven unhealthy unless done completely incorrectly. Here is a link to the basic idea if you wish to read it the Results section is off because of poor studies being sited and the normal dogma twisting but the approach is what's key.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/atkins-diet/MY00648

Given the time frame of when his diet plan came out and the info available to him he laid out the best plan he could for SUPER Obese people and Diabetics. Is his diet up to date? That I do not know as I have not read the new book. I have many books on my plate though and it will be one of them. But I wonder why MAD or a Modified Atkins Diet is being used to treat epilepsy if its unhealthy?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22419282

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22425426

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22332768

http://atkinsforseizures.com/

People say the same about Vegetarianism that it's unhealthy and blah blah blah the same as Atkins.

Eat how you wish and if it works for you KUDOS!

Kairosgrammy wrote:Well, I succeeded in stepping on someone's toes which I truly didn't mean to do. I looked at some information on Atkins and carbs are so severely limited in the induction phase that you could hardly eat more than a vegetable or two before you ran out of carbs. Basically makes things carb free. Lack of vitamins and minerals, etc. Atkins is a more extreme diet and I don't think you can refute that when it basically restricts several groups of foods. If you spend a bit of time on the internet, you will find Atkins is safe or Atkin's is unsafe and each and every source is a reputable source. Certainly your Mayo clinic references would be considered reliable.

Yes for a few weeks - that is why it is called an "Induction phase". Most people don't seem to read past that. The vast majority of people can manage on a very very restricted diet for months, their bodies having acquired stores of food to get them through the famine as it is designed to.

-SWS wrote:

VVV wrote:That has the sound of finis. So what did you decide to eat?

Believe it or not I haven't decided yet.

That's not so much indecisiveness at work as it is a commitment to analyze important decisions. I'm presently considering a new and hopefully healthier way of life. If I were shopping for a new geographic region---one in which to spend the remainder of my life---I would not allow myself to arrive at such an important decision with haste. The same is true as I consider a new eating lifestyle. The opinions, anecdotes, and links presented in this and other threads are the equivalent of my finally having checked out an armload of books at the library.

My wife and I presently alternate between eating "conventional-wisdom healthy" and "conventional-wisdom unhealthy"---both with higher carbs and sugar than I suspect is right for our metabolisms. I wouldn't be surprised if we decide to try a low-carb, high-fat diet in the upcoming weeks or months. I still have plenty of reading to do. And I haven't yet gone through the paradigm exercise of attempting to critically attack the low-carb, high-fat school-of-thought.

If we decide to try a low-carb, high-fat diet, then we would commit to evaluating that lifestyle for no less than half-a-year. I now have plenty of information, opinions, and anecdotes thanks to the generous offerings in our various nutrition and diet threads. I can't repeat the words "thank you" enough.

May I suggest joining Intrade and starting a new market subject, "Science will settle on best diet 12/31/2015. Yes/No."?

http://www.intrade.com/v4/markets/

They have a very good track record and it sure beats days of wandering through contradictory articles.

VVV wrote: May I suggest joining Intrade and starting a new market subject, "Science will settle on best diet 12/31/2015. Yes/No."?

http://www.intrade.com/v4/markets/

They have a very good track record and it sure beats days of wandering through contradictory articles.

Make that "Science might settle on best diet by 12/31/3015"... I don't see definitive epidemiology on the immediate horizon. That places the burden of nutrition decision-making in the realm of heuristic personal judgement.

I think relying on some confluence of evaluating science, weighting anecdotes/opinions, and performing reasonable trial-and-error is the path that my wife and I will likely take.

-SWS

I would like to thank YOU for starting this thread. I will be honest and say that my determination to get healthy took a big hit after seeing and talking to the people in my area who went through RNY and assorted surgeries that got much worse after the 2 year mark, not due to fat but to complications. This thread and all the different sources of information has rekindled my interest in trying something again.

I hope whatever you and your wife chose to do that you find success.

P.S.
I have SO much reading to do.

Thanks for the well wishes, Hades. Good luck in charting your new healthy lifestyle.

Have a happy journey as you move onward to the next horizon, my friend.