Is this REM sleep?

The higher respiration (and when on my CMS50E shows higher heart rate during these periods too) seems to me to indicate REM sleep. Would I be right?



I notice that during longer "sessions" on the APAP, I can have as many as 5 periods. The first period is always smaller, less disturbance in respiration which is congruent with what I read that the first REM onset is often more subtle.

Thoughts?

There may be some on here who can tell you if those waves are REM...I can't. However, what I DID do to get a better handle on if I was having my REM or deep sleep was to get a ZEO sleep monitor

http://www.myzeo.com/sleep/

It has really helped me understand and learn about my sleep cycles and enabled me to try different things and see how I reacted. Even with my cpap, I was getting very little (if any) REM or deep sleep most nights, so I started on a long journey to figure that out and get it fixed. I couldn't have done that with the Zeo. It really helped me to understand why I was still so tired even though I was faithfully using my machine every night--I wasn't getting enough REM or deep sleep and my sleep was very very fragmented (30 awakenings a night) that were completely unrelated to any obstructive or other events.

A Zeo is not as accurate as a sleep study, it isn't meant to be. But it does give you a good idea of how you cycle through four sleep stages (REM, deep, light, and awake). When you combine this information with the output from your cpap, you can get a really good idea of what's happening and when.

I've had mine a year now and wouldn't be without it. This isn't an advertisement--I have no connection with this company other than as a really satisfied customer.

Weezy

DocWeezy wrote:...However, what I DID do to get a better handle on if I was having my REM or deep sleep was to get a ZEO sleep monitor

Thank you! I'll check that out. I was looking about for something like that.

It's impossible to tell sleep stages from what we are given in these reports but you can also eyeball the times with the normal sleep stages. First REM stage normally will occur around 90 minutes after sleep onset and occur more frequently and last a bit longer in the wee hours of the morning.

There is a hypnogram showing the sleep cycles here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep

The use of a Zeo would be your best option to try to evaluate if these times with increased pulse or respiration also correspond with REM stage sleep.

The Zeo is supposed to record REM- that plus an EEG are as close as you'll get to knowing. Your RR or whatever may correspond with REM but without something to measure brainwaves you just don't know.

I was reading the reviews on Amazon for the Zeo and saw one of the chief issues was how (in)accurately it identifies sleep stages, more than one person saying it said they were sleeping when obviously awake. One other pointed out it has a recorded resolution of 1 minute, thus missing brief arousals. I guess for 3 electrodes strapped on your forehead for less than $200, one cannot expect too much. However, inaccurate info can be misleading, worse than no info. For $122.00 on Amazon, I might be interested in messing with it and see what comes of it.

Max, that is very similar to the way mine looks. I also have increased flow limitations during those periods, and pressure increases if I am using auto.
During my PSG all of my events were during REM. When I got my Zeo it confirmed it. The only time my Zeo seems inconsistant is when I first put it on and go to sleep, It registers some REM really quick. That may just me getting settled.

Lizistired wrote:Max, that is very similar to the way mine looks. I also have increased flow limitations during those periods, and pressure increases if I am using auto.
During my PSG all of my events were during REM. When I got my Zeo it confirmed it. The only time my Zeo seems inconsistant is when I first put it on and go to sleep, It registers some REM really quick. That may just me getting settled.

You and I sound similar. In my sleep study I think I had about 13% REM and my AHI during REM was 48 compared to 28 during NREM. So, not enough REM and when I did, it was well perforated by events.

As I read more about the Zeo, I find what you are saying also... that the inaccuracies seem to be when starting the rest period, it logging light / REM when they are still awake.

I am on a personal discovery of all the data capabilities for the Zeo. I probably will focus first on setting it up to write un-encoded data on the SD card and then "get at it". I would do a serial cable thing, but I'm a software guy, not hardware. I will probably import all my data into software I have that includes a high speed real-time database, data pre-processing, modeling analysis, cause and effect analysis and look at a lot of factors to try to improve how I feel during the day as I know that AHI and "wellness" are only weakly correlated.

Thanks. I placed my order for the bedside Zeo tonight.

For those interested, that 2nd "REM" indication I put up there almost always occurs about 3:00-4:00 AM, I get a lot of events like it shows, the pressure goes up and I have "issues"... almost every single night. If I can get past that period, I've got a good steady, solid night's rest 9 out of 10 times. I need a "2nd REM Muffler" to quiet it down

MaxDarkside wrote:For those interested, that 2nd "REM" indication I put up there almost always occurs about 3:00-4:00 AM, I get a lot of events like it shows, the pressure goes up and I have "issues"... almost every single night. If I can get past that period, I've got a good steady, solid night's rest 9 out of 10 times. I need a "2nd REM Muffler" to quiet it down

I am worse in REM sleep (53 AHI) compared to Non REM (12 AHI). Barely diagnostic if it wasn't for REM.
Even now with AHI well under control I still see a few little tiny clusters try to pop up sometimes. Almost always my clusters will be much worse and pressures will increase much more in the wee hours of the morning. For me I can pretty much eyeball the REM Stages on my reports..A few events kick in , flow limitations increase and maybe an occasional snore. All in line with normal sleep stages. Times not in REM have very little activity. All my activity will run in little spurts.

Max, see these threads for posts relating to the Zeo and using the Open Office draw program to sync data
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=68424&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p635357
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=68747&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p638020
and here for building an infrared camera and light source
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=65101&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p607701
Jay

Jay Aitchsee wrote:Max, see these threads for posts relating to the Zeo and using the Open Office draw program to sync data

Thanks Jay!

My first REM cycle starts consistantly at 1 hour into sleep. Some in the middle. Then usually a good one just before waking. It really does make a difference whether I wake from light or REM in how I feel.