OT: Why Do People Reject Science - Wrap Up

I will do it for $2.0 million, plus for one year I will:

- clean your house in its entirety biweekly
- detail any two cars monthly
- mow your lawn weekly
- perform fall leaf removal and clean gutters.

All work guaranteed and backed by $100,000 bond.

Point made, but unfortunately the offer was theoretical. I'm as broke as the rest of you!
J

NachtWürger wrote:

Mr Bill wrote: Faculty members in universities are very sensitive about freedoms.

I take it you are such a faculty member?

In any case, are you sensitive to the freedom of individuals to hold and spend their money as they choose without a government who thinks they know better how those individuals' money should be spent?

No, I am not a faculty member, but my father was and I spent 23 years in a college environment. I learned that I would prefer to run a lab in an academic setting, I enjoy teaching, but I do not want to be a faculty member. You can't be a graduate student without picking up on university politics. So, sure people are free to live in countries without American universities. Civilization is a messy convoluted process, you get born in one, sometimes you are lucky enough to choose the one you want. Nobody in the whole messy business manages to have it just as they want it. But it works pretty well.

jamiswolf wrote: Bet I could buy your integrity for $5,000,000...and would that negate all of your previous pronouncements?
J

NachtWürger wrote:
I will do it for $4.5 million. Please send the contract.

NightMonkey wrote:I will disavow all my previous pronouncements and wear on my back an 8 x 10" placard with the word "Charlatan" in four-inch block letters for ninety days for $3.5 million.

jamiswolf wrote:Point made, but unfortunately the offer was theoretical. I'm as broke as the rest of you!
J

Too bad you closed the bidding so early. Using my experience in forecasting supply and demand, I have calculated had you left the bidding open until today the price would be down to $14.

NachtWürger wrote:
On another philosophic point, are we not here relying on cpaptalk for good but unscientific advice because the scientific literature on how to effectively treat sleep apnea is far from complete and not entirely accurate? Does cpaptalk not have value? It has provided value for me.

I'd disagree this this. To me, the most useful parts of this forum are those that follow the scientific method.

Make an observation (I seem to have events before the APAP raises my pressure high enough)
Form a hypothesis (If my pressure were higher earlier I may have fewer events)
Make a testable prediction (If I increase my minimum pressure at the start of the night will it reduce my AHI?)
Experiment to test prediction (Usually on themselves but then others often try too!)
Check results (My AHI has improved!)
Modify hypothesis to take into account all observations from experimentation (Doesn't work if I increase it too much)

If it works, and more people repeat the experiment and report and modify the hypothesis to improve it, it gets promoted. If it does not work for some people the theory may be refined to include exceptions and qualifications so that it becomes more and more useful. The scientific method does not mean a hypothesis has to be accurate from the start. The whole idea is that proposal, testing and modification improves the result until a theory is distilled. That is why the forum is such good value. When people purport to have authority and instruct people to do things, that is unscientific, tends to get ignored and often heavily criticized.

To say the advice on this forum is "unscientific" could not be further from the truth!

I recall Radial keratotomy evolved in the Soviet Union from a lucky accident to assembly-line eye surgery,
simply because it was cheaper than paying for all those glasses.
It would have never happened here--the optical industry is a cash cow.
Now, what country would see a big enough benefit to develop a cure for apnea?
Blowers ares too deep a bucket--where are they not?

chunkyfrog wrote:Now, what country would see a big enough benefit to develop a cure for apnea?

Hi chunkyfrog!

Are you both chunky, and a frog?

Hmmm,

(perhaps we were separated at birth?)

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Anyway, if I may address your most excellent question:

chunkyfrog wrote:Now, what country would see a big enough benefit to develop a cure for apnea?

I don't have an answer.

Certainly Sweden jumps to mind.

(too small, too socialist?)

Then, I pick . . . Canada!

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(space-time warp jump to:)

OT>Radio X: Frank Ocean crushes "Novacain"

viewtopic/t72250/OTgtRadio-X-Frank-Ocea ... nquot.html

( a great thread, imho, don't know why the sleep-zombies are ignoring it, but what the hey)

Anyway, I had posted:

rocklin wrote:Today, while in a Russian barber shop, the barber, a young Russian hip-hop artist played me something quite sad and beautiful.

What I didn't say was that I struck up a conversation with the guy my Russian was scissoring.

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roc: You headed to UCB? (Upright Citizens Brigade, an astonishing improvisational theater that I haunt regularly, if you visit NYC, they are a must see, imho)

guy in barber's chair: No, I'm going to see the sites and then get out of here.

roc: You a tourist?

guy: No, I work here.

roc: But you're not from here?

guy: No way. Never.

roc: Huh? Sounds like you don't like it here.

guy: I don't. I want to make my money and get out. Honestly, your country (United States of America) has nothing to offer me.

roc: Funny, you don't sound French.

guy: I'm Canadian.

roc: You're kidding.

guy: No.

roc: You think Canada has it all over America?

I mean, other than hockey, of course.

guy: Please.

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(and then he spends ten minutes explaining how everything critical in life is "free" in Canada, whereas, life in the states is just . . .cutthroat.

And that any Canadian who actually leaves Canada to come to the states has a real purpose (i.e, fame, money, sex with american women), which, when he/she has fulfilled, he/she will gladly high-tail it back to mother Canada.

I am speechless.

I thought the entire world was dying to stake a place here.

But noooo, not the Canadians, anyway.

wtf, right? We still rule, right?

I mean, can you even name one major thing they invented?

I didn't think so.

Uh, how about one minor thing?

(tick-tock, tick-tock)

I didn't think so.

So there's no way a bunch of Canadians will ever, ever cure sleep apnea.

qed

roc

And SleepingUgly, please keep your snarky "stirring the pot" comments to yourself.

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I'm trying hard to see the point in the last note here, but getting nowhere fast... anyone else?

Julie wrote:I'm trying hard to see the point in the last note here, but getting nowhere fast... anyone else?

Perhaps the point (and not all posts have one, especially by some ) is that people develop beliefs (scientificly based or not) in much the same way that they end up living in a particular location--convenience, accident of birth, personal prejudices, preformed impressions, etc.

The strong Canadian presence on this board is very much appreciated. I do know that.

And although my knowledge of geography isn't all that great, I believe that Nebraska is way too far south to successfully secede to Canada, whether that would improve healthcare coverage or global warming for them or not. Whereas parts of upstate New York are basically a suburb of our dear neighbors to the north. Some New Yorkers here in NYC file everything above the Bronx as "virtually Canada," anyway.

Some consider all OT threads fair game for nonsense. Some don't. But it seems to me that few off-topic threads ever quite stay on the off topic, or off the off topic, or off the on topic, for that matter.

Maybe we need a new category: NT, for nontopic threads?

chunkyfrog wrote:I recall Radial keratotomy evolved in the Soviet Union from a lucky accident to assembly-line eye surgery,
simply because it was cheaper than paying for all those glasses.
It would have never happened here--the optical industry is a cash cow.
Now, what country would see a big enough benefit to develop a cure for apnea?
Blowers ares too deep a bucket--where are they not?

You mention a country developing a cure for apnea. Do Nebraskans have a world view that it is the responsibility of governments to develop cures for health problems?

Do Nebraskans not understand that the great preponderance of cures have been developed in countries with market-based economies? And that these cures have been primarily been developed by private interests seeking profits for their investments?

At least in the U.S. you do not have to worry about suppression of a cure for sleep apnea due to vested interest of the sleep industry. The cure will likely come from outside the industry as private interests are currently pouring much money into research to develop a cure.

Vested interests are not much of a threat to such a cure, the threat comes from an ever encroaching government - especially under the current administration.

Be nice to chunkyfrog!

Obviously "country" meant scientists in a particular country.

And the point that much of the funding for scientific research within a given Western country comes from industries with interests in the outcome is not a point that actually needs to be defended, is it?

My scientific question is, how many identities can one yardbird have?

I've been meaning to speak on this thread for quite a long time, but since I've been traveling to a science related conference (Materials Research Society). For those unaware material science consists of materials such as, but not limited to: nanomaterials, MEMS, organics, negative refractive materials, and graphene.

Note: the previous part was not for the sake of being pretentious. It was to mention why I missed out on this thread, and why I should especially be upset about it. I LOVE science!

Now, mind you I should read all of these posts in detail, but here are MY thoughts with possibly some past thought experiments.

So, now that my disclaimers have been written, and now hopefully I can get to the crux of this.

Looking at people and their actions it generally seems that critical thought, that is questioning assumption, is not encouraged. All too often people will look to various authority figures, things that feel good, etc. for direction. This happens early, from childhood, I think. I remember how much of a pain two science oriented children were to raise for my parents. We caught things on fire, and and asked many unanswerable questions to our parents. Our parents supervised our backyard experiments, and encouraged us to read, and not give up. I cannot help but wonder if people inadvertently indoctrinate their children, peers, etc. One of Feynman's books mentions Feynman as a child asking his father about authority figures. His father told him that all of these people: police officers, priests, etc. were just people. They wore different outfits and had slightly different training, but were still people. Not enough people have that sort of guidance. In fact it often seems that many people look at their children as liabilities, doorstops, and the little bastards that eat away at their quality time gaming, watching tv or otherwise idling away knee deep in prole feed. If children learn through emulating, and encouraging... then wow... that is not promising... bad trends quickly are encouraged and perpetuated. Here are some people interpreting a study that I do not have full access to: http://bodyodd.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011 ... y-suggests. Here is the portion of the study that I have access to: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 011.573461 . The study is about media priming. Who is to prime people? Horrifying isn't it?

Some people just take the views their parents had without thinking, and others do a jeet kun do approach with surface thoughts attached to each thing taken. It seems seldom that people will blow time thinking and discussing their views, learning, pragmatism, or lofty theory instead of "wowsterbating" at World of Warcrack (Dear WOW players, I'm sorry, but the addicts do not make you guys look good). Of course there exists a balance. Moderation in all things... yes, even moderation.

Between teaching bad habits, and the general tendency for people to "not want to rock the boat" unless they are talking politics, morals, and ethics many of the irrational behaviors are observed. IT seems that if it threatens money, morals, ethics, politics, deeply held beliefs (with or without basis) then many people become warlike and unbending. Here is an example of money: How often has one sat in a restaurant and saw someone receive "bad service" which wasn't all that bad? What about the response? Sometimes said someone throws a tantrum that would make a two year old's tantrum seem mild. In fact it seems that it happens too frequently. These childish folk have conditioned management figures to bribe them into shutting up.

Many people do not seem to see science as practical. Many people see unquestioning, defense, tradition, treating children as noisy doorstops, money, more money (it is symbolic and contrived, anyway), and many other things as within arm's reach and thus more practical. For science one must learn, reach, etc. People do not seem to believe many things are possible, and therefore are not practical. Many people whine about headaches from thinking... I've never understood that.

Forgive my subjective, nonscientific rant about non-scientific people. It just seems that our world is founded on emotions, placating people, and turgid, wrong self preservation instincts.

If I offended anyone, I'm sorry, these are only opinions about irrational behavior, the biases people have, and other things that people do to reject/encourage the rejection of science. I hope you enjoyed.

The Choker wrote:
Do Nebraskans not understand that the great preponderance of cures have been developed in countries with market-based economies? And that these cures have been primarily been developed by private interests seeking profits for their investments?

At least in the U.S. you do not have to worry about suppression of a cure for sleep apnea due to vested interest of the sleep industry. The cure will likely come from outside the industry as private interests are currently pouring much money into research to develop a cure.

Vested interests are not much of a threat to such a cure, the threat comes from an ever encroaching government - especially under the current administration.

It is good to see those in the U.S. who still believe in market-based economies and private investment. The view from my business partners this side of the Atlantic is that you are quickly slipping into socialism and heavy dependence on government. Hopefully there are enough of you to reverse this tide.

RationalEntropy wrote:Looking at people and their actions it generally seems that critical thought, that is questioning assumption, is not encouraged. All too often people will look to various authority figures, things that feel good, etc. for direction. This happens early, from childhood, I think.

Humans, at least the American variety, by and large are intellectually lazy. That is evidenced by the huge churches where the minister feeds up a "feel good gospel" that doesn't involve questioning the recorded words of anyone from Moses to Jesus to George Bush. Or the large following the Tea Party has, and Bill O'Reilly's huge audience. And then there's the frenzied followers of modern entertainers, and TV viewers of sports, and on and on. Yep, serve up a ready-made neatly packaged belief that makes the listener feel good and you'll be a hero! And those who do think, and offer up their thoughts, are often ignored because it requires too much cranial effort to digest what they've said, or makes the listener uncomfortable. I've been on both sides so I know whereof I write!

Warning: Do not. Diss. Nebraskans. We know where your food grows. And we never forget where we came from.

It's also an ad hominem attack by definition, which makes it unworthy of any rational person.

RationalEntropy, I think you're right - science takes intellectual work, and there are people who dislike intellectual work. Idamtnboy, my experience suggests that that is not unique to any country or culture, though. Almost everyone is within the reach of media (and that's really most of us now), and media is, as you suggested, replete with self-appointed pundits who are very happy to tell us what we should think.

NachtWurger (which means "Night Strangler"... or "Seize the Night," if my German is correct... ) your statement confuses me. The basis for your statement about the US moving away from a market based economy really doesn't seem to be well-founded - have you looked at the US economic profile or the source of economic problems within the US lately? Have you looked at the sources of Europe's economic crisis lately? Either your partners are not paying attention, or they are having you on, or your basis for that statement is something other than what most of us would think of when talking economics.