Taping

GumbyCT · Post by **GumbyCT** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:04 pm

rested gal wrote:Mouth leak can be improved by use of a chin strap, placement of tape or a bandage over the mouth

See what aa fails to realize is that the mouth is for food (nourishment) not for breathing and should remain closed while/when sleeping and prob when posting too

Even dogs close their mouths to breath thru their nose.

AND every time my machine has shut off I have woken up. I think I am more aware than I was before cpap. Plus when you do think about how many years went by where I stopped breathing 62 or more times each hour AND I didn't make the obits yet.

And an honest warning is one thing becoming a public nuisance is another. Seems like every village has one.

kempo · Post by **kempo** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:53 pm

rested gal wrote:Well, let's see... I did a Google search for this:
"reported deaths from tape over mouth while using CPAP"

I didn't look through ALL the links (no, didn't find one that went to a reported death) but did find this interesting little tidbit on the American Thoracic Society's webpage:
"Two head scratchers: What's causing the leak?"
http://www.thoracic.org/clinical/sleep/ ... e-leak.php

An excerpt from the "Answer" page for "Discussion case #2 (bold emphasis mine:)
Management of leak includes optimization of mask and headgear fit, comfort and seal and comfort, verifying the integrity of the circuit, and use of heated humidification, with in some instances nasal lubricant or inhaled steroid, to minimize nasal symptoms (4,8,9). Mouth leak can be improved by use of a chin strap, placement of tape or a bandage over the mouth, or use of a full face or oral interface (9). Fixed CPAP should be prescribed at the lowest effective level to minimize leak. In some cases, the addition of expiratory pressure reduction or use of auto-adjusting CPAP which lowers mean pressure may improve leak.

That article in thoracic.org was contributed by:
Isabelle Boutin, MD, Isabelle Coté, MD, and R. John Kimoff, MD, Respiratory Division & Sleep Laboratory, McGill University Health Centre, Montreal, Quebec Canada

Yea, and Archangle goes all over the forum screaming " the medical profession is horrified about the use of tape!". I told my doctor that I had finally found a cure for my mouth breathing and it was taping my mouth shut. He said "That's Great, keep up the good work".

Now folks, who are you suppose to believe. Your Doctor or some stranger (archangle) on the internet.

I just wonder how many forum members are not getting the therapy they desperately need because they have been frightened by archangle's scare tactics.

It is a shame.

archangle · Post by **archangle** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:59 pm

rested gal wrote:Well, let's see... I did a Google search for this:
"reported deaths from tape over mouth while using CPAP"

A lack of hits on Google search hardly constitutes valid statistical data. As I've posted before, there are good reasons why a person who dies in his sleep from taping will probably not get reported as a taping related death.

rested gal wrote:I didn't look through ALL the links (no, didn't find one that went to a reported death) but did find this interesting little tidbit on the American Thoracic Society's webpage:
"Two head scratchers: What's causing the leak?"
http://www.thoracic.org/clinical/sleep/ ... e-leak.php

An excerpt from the "Answer" page for "Discussion case #2 (bold emphasis mine:)
Management of leak includes optimization of mask and headgear fit, comfort and seal and comfort, verifying the integrity of the circuit, and use of heated humidification, with in some instances nasal lubricant or inhaled steroid, to minimize nasal symptoms (4,8,9). Mouth leak can be improved by use of a chin strap, placement of tape or a bandage over the mouth, or use of a full face or oral interface (9). Fixed CPAP should be prescribed at the lowest effective level to minimize leak. In some cases, the addition of expiratory pressure reduction or use of auto-adjusting CPAP which lowers mean pressure may improve leak.

That article in thoracic.org was contributed by:
Isabelle Boutin, MD, Isabelle Coté, MD, and R. John Kimoff, MD, Respiratory Division & Sleep Laboratory, McGill University Health Centre, Montreal, Quebec Canada

OK, you have a few doctors who mention taping as a possibility. They probably just didn't think it through and consider asphyxiation after machine failure or aspiration asphyxiation.

Tell me why all full face masks have anti-asphyxia valves. Note the word "asphyxia". How is a nasal mask user with a taped mouth any safer than an FFM user with no anti-asphyxia valve? Would you recommend someone use an FFM mask with a broken anti-asphyxia valve? Are the manufacturers putting anti-asphyxia valves in FFMs just for fun?

Note that Respironics even warns in the packaging for their chin strap that just the chin strap may cause asphyxiation. I'm not worried about chin straps myself, but do you really think tape is less dangerous than a chin strap?

Why don't CPAP or mask manufacturers recommend taping?

idamtnboy · Post by **idamtnboy** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:33 am

rested gal wrote:Well, let's see... I did a Google search for this:
"reported deaths from tape over mouth while using CPAP"

I didn't look through ALL the links (no, didn't find one that went to a reported death) but did find this interesting little tidbit

I also did a search a few days ago. Interestingly there is a particular group devoted to the idea of taping to improve nose breathing to reduce asthma problems. I didn't bother to post that info (sometimes it's just not worth trying to beat a nail into a rock) and I don't recall the specifics now. But I also did not come up with any reports of deaths due to taping except for homicides and suicides.

With the billions of words and phrases that Google finds in the billions of computer based documents, if a report of a CPAP patient death due to taping had ever been written, Google would have found it. But since it is impossible to prove the non-existence of a physical reality, just as it is impossible to prove the existence of a specific physical reality when it cannot be found, aa's opinion can never be absolutely, unequivocally, 100.0000000%, discounted just like he cannot 100.000000% prove it is real. Hell, so far he hasn't even been able to 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% prove it's real!!!!

archangle · Post by **archangle** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:14 pm

idamtnboy wrote:With the billions of words and phrases that Google finds in the billions of computer based documents, if a report of a CPAP patient death due to taping had ever been written, Google would have found it.

You just don't get it. At best that indicates that there are not any reports of taping related asphyxiation deaths on internet pages that Google indexes. Google doesn't search inside hospital databases and most medical records. It probably doesn't even index death certificates. Google doesn't investigate causes of death looking to see if taping had anything to do with the death of a taper.

If a taper dies quietly in his sleep, and there's no evidence of foul play, do you think anyone is going to bother to investigate the death, figure out taping was the cause and then post it on the internet somewhere? Unless that happens, Google is not going to find anything.

SMenasco · Post by **SMenasco** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:39 am

To all you new people searching for solutions, the bunk Archangle puts out is just that. Taping is not dangerous nor does the activity pose a life risk. It solves the problem of air recirculation from nose back through the mouth, causing extermely painful dry mouth.

kempo · Post by **kempo** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:27 pm

archangle wrote:
idamtnboy wrote:With the billions of words and phrases that Google finds in the billions of computer based documents, if a report of a CPAP patient death due to taping had ever been written, Google would have found it.
You just don't get it. At best that indicates that there are not any reports of taping related asphyxiation deaths on internet pages that Google indexes. Google doesn't search inside hospital databases and most medical records. It probably doesn't even index death certificates. Google doesn't investigate causes of death looking to see if taping had anything to do with the death of a taper.

If a taper dies quietly in his sleep, and there's no evidence of foul play, do you think anyone is going to bother to investigate the death, figure out taping was the cause and then post it on the internet somewhere? Unless that happens, Google is not going to find anything.

GROW UP!

GumbyCT · Post by **GumbyCT** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:14 pm

archangle wrote:You just don't get it. At best that indicates that there are not any reports of taping related asphyxiation deaths on internet pages that Google indexes. Google doesn't search inside hospital databases and most medical records. It probably doesn't even index death certificates. Google doesn't investigate causes of death looking to see if taping had anything to do with the death of a taper.

If a taper dies quietly in his sleep, and there's no evidence of foul play, do you think anyone is going to bother to investigate the death, figure out taping was the cause and then post it on the internet somewhere? Unless that happens, Google is not going to find anything.

Here is your chance to ASK Dr. Park
http://doctorstevenpark.com/ask-dr-park ... pnea-11811

But be warned we will be listening.

archangle · Post by **archangle** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:09 pm

SMenasco wrote:To all you new people searching for solutions, the bunk Archangle puts out is just that. Taping is not dangerous nor does the activity pose a life risk. It solves the problem of air recirculation from nose back through the mouth, causing extermely painful dry mouth.

Read the following and decide who is spouting bunk.

SMenasco wrote:Physicsbob, my ox died and I am completely out of breath from dragging it into the taping room. Besides, why would anyone with just an ounce of orneriness want to settle this, anyway? Haven't you heard? Blue painter's tape has been added to the list of suspected aphrodisiacs. The source of this leaked information is top secret. If I told you, I'd have to. . .well, never mind. People, especially dirty old men like myself, for centuries have exposed themselves to terrible risks, great embarrassment and grave bodily harm just for a whiff of the old aphro. I'm surprised that you unnamed taping critics (you know who you are) haven't started clandestine taping in the closet. Think about it. This is really not unlikely. It would be safe for them, since they would be awake and not get sick and puke in their masks since they're standing up and also not be in there during an electrical storm. And they certainly wouldn't tell their next of kin what they were doing and why. So, please don't suggest we settle this thing until we know for sure that 3M doesn't soak old sticky blue in special love potions. Wait! Is there any significance to the color of the tape? The world wonders.

SMenasco · Post by **SMenasco** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:01 pm

I think there is a slight difference between parody and bunk. Me, parody. You, bunk.

GumbyCT · Post by **GumbyCT** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:52 pm

GumbyCT wrote:
archangle wrote:You just don't get it.
Here is your chance to ASK Dr. Park
http://doctorstevenpark.com/ask-dr-park ... pnea-11811

But be warned we will be listening.

I was listening, hope that will put it to rest. YOU are the only one who believes what you believe.

Give it a REST my friend. Take a walk to the theater and holler, "YOU tapers will die".
Thanks

archangle · Post by **archangle** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:45 pm

GumbyCT wrote:Take a walk to the theater and holler, "YOU tapers will die".
Thanks

I'm not hollering "FIRE" in a crowded theater. I'm pointing out to people that the emergency exits are blocked.

moresleep · Post by **moresleep** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:47 pm

I tape--only thing that would work for me, and I believe the risks are very small. But I also have a battery back up system, an anti-rebreathing valve in the humidifier (not sure how much that would help so far down the hose, but it's there), and a machine that will sound an alarm if its power supply fails (the legacy "tank" ASV). If I could find one, I'd buy an inline anti-rebreathing valve for between the hose and the mask--anyone here know of any?

A study reporting on rebreathing when Cpap power fails (which won't tell you more than you already guessed) can be found at:

Potential Rebreathing After Continuous Positive Airway Pressure Failure During Sleep
http://chestjournal.chestpubs.org/conte ... 1/196.full

The last two paragraphs state:

In this laboratory study, we carried out an analysis of the potential consequences of a sudden arrest of the CPAP apparatus during sleep. To this end, we carefully characterized the different elements of a conventional CPAP system and illustrated the potential rebreathing actually induced in an awake healthy subject. Accordingly, we demonstrated that there is a potential risk of rebreathing. In this bench study, we did not investigate the frequency of occurrence or the clinical implications of CPAP failure at home. The probability of a serious accident after CPAP failure and its clinical relevance is probably low from a statistical viewpoint, since in most cases the patient would be able to spontaneously respond to the challenge. Nevertheless, patient response during sleep is not ensured in all the individual cases, particularly taking into account that CPAP is being prescribed for an increasing number of patients and different pathologies that even may coincide in a same patient (eg, sleep apnea, Cheyne-Stokes, obesity, nocturnal hypoventilation). Indeed, patients with SAHS who also have COPD, respiratory muscle weakness, low CO2 response, or who are receiving depressant drugs may present reduced response to a rise in CO2 concentration and decreased arousability and, therefore, they could be more exposed to the risk of rebreathing associated to CPAP failure. Taking into account that home CPAP is applied to an increasing number of patients during the whole night for a very long period,3 we wonder whether the inclusion of alarms10 or safety valves (Fig 4) to avoid this risk is advisable.

In conclusion, common home CPAP systems used in patients with SAHS run a risk of inducing rebreathing in the event of electrical or equipment failure. The inclusion of a passive valve, which could be inexpensive and easy to attach to any CPAP device already in use, is a possible procedure to improve both the safety of the equipment and the reliance of the patient.

GumbyCT · Post by **GumbyCT** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:58 pm

archangle wrote:I'm not hollering "FIRE" in a crowded theater. I'm pointing out to people that the emergency exits are blocked.

Do you consider yourself a frustrated lawyer by chance?

Will the real lawyers in the crowd real this wipe in, please. (pun, pun)

archangle · Post by **archangle** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:53 pm

moresleep wrote:I tape--only thing that would work for me, and I believe the risks are very small. But I also have a battery back up system, an anti-rebreathing valve in the humidifier (not sure how much that would help so far down the hose, but it's there), and a machine that will sound an alarm if its power supply fails (the legacy "tank" ASV). If I could find one, I'd buy an inline anti-rebreathing valve for between the hose and the mask--anyone here know of any?

A study reporting on rebreathing when Cpap power fails (which won't tell you more than you already guessed) can be found at:

Thanks for the study, moresleep, but I think this not for people taping their mouth. It's been said that if your CPAP stops and the O2 in your nasal mask drops, you'll open your mouth and get O2 that way.

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