Brain-derived neurotrphic factor and CPAP

kurtr · Post by **kurtr** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:25 am

I found an interesting article in THORAX 2005;60;688-692 regarding a study that people with untreated OSA have normal BDNF levels BUT patients treated with CPAP have low BDNF levels. BDNF is needed for memory and cognition.

Why would CPAP cause a decrease in this factor? I thought most studies show that CPAP improves cognitive issues?

Kurt

BDNF-short · Post by **BDNF-short** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:10 pm

Haven't read the study yet. Did the study also happen to measure BDNF's resultant neurocognitive functionality in both treated and untreated patients (plasticity and other measurable neurocognitive factors)? One possibility that comes to mind is the likelihood that BDNF is dysregulated in both cases: "normal" BDNF levels in an untreated apnea patient may still constitute insufficient levels to yield proper neurocognitive functioning in light of untreated OSA; then once that OSA is treated, BDNF lowers because of that treatment, yet is still dysregulated too low. Perhaps a consistent BDNF "under-regulation" occurs in both cases because of irreparable neurocognitive damage having occured from untreated OSA. If this conjecture of mine were true then a sleep-related biochemical feedback loop will consistently at least one loop input factor or perhaps under-regulate or under-produce BDNF based on unskewed input to that sleep related biofeedback loop.

Another theoretical possibility that comes to mind entails sensory-based cortical arousals that may be introduced by CPAP equipment. I would expect this condition/effect to be especially prevalent among at least some new CPAP patients---those who have not yet acclimated to the physical invaseiveness of CPAP machine and/or mask. I would hope the study you cited distinguished BDNF levels among new and long-term CPAP users.

Very interesting topic! I hope others here have some better insight into this study's counter-intuitive BDNF results.

BDNF-short · Post by **BDNF-short** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:32 pm

I should mention that BDNF is an entirely new topic for me. So I could be confusing BDNF. Does anyone know if BDNF refers to those input factors that result in neurogognitive functionality----or if BDNF instead refers to the resulting neurocognitive functionality that is measured? My initial assumption was that BDNF results varying levels of neurocognitive functionality. Thanks in advance.

kurtr · Post by **kurtr** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:59 pm

The study used 17 newly diagnosed OSA men and measured BDNF before CPAP and after one night and 3 months and also as a control, 12 healthy men.
Strangely, after one night of CPAP ther was a steep fall in median serum and plasma BDNF that did not return after 3 months..........why?

BDNF-short · Post by **BDNF-short** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:32 pm

kurtr wrote:Strangely, after one night of CPAP ther was a steep fall in median serum and plasma BDNF that did not return after 3 months..........why?

This may tie into my second theory above. For some of us sleep gets worse as we acclimate to CPAP before it gets better. These are all new CPAP patients. So I have to guess their diminished BDNF has to do with CPAP acclimation. A brand new CPAP and/or mask can actually introduce cortical arousals (sleep disturbances) until the patient properly acclimates to CPAP. in other words these new CPAP patients are even more sleep deprived until they get used to sleeping with CPAP.

I am disappointed the study did not attempt to distinguish differences in BDNF in new CPAP patients versus long-term CPAP patients who have acclimated to CPAP's brand new sensory intrusions. Not a good study in my opinion.

Darth Vader Look · Post by **Darth Vader Look** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:04 pm

Here is an online link to the BDNF study.

BDNF-short · Post by **BDNF-short** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:36 pm

Darth Vader Look wrote:Here is an online link to the BDNF study.

Thanks. I can see the answer to my question is that BDNF entails measurable secretions. So BDNF constitutes the biochemical input which affect our neurocognitive functions such as plasticity, memory, etc. My initial assumption was okay after all, then.

I should not have said this was a bad study. Reading the link I can see that no unfair implications or conclusions were drawn. The sample size is small and the study's results may be atypical. Then again they may not. I would like to see the study replicated. I would also like to see BDNF levels measured in patients for more than three months since CPAP acclimation may actually take longer than three months for quite a few patients.

nicholasjh · Post by **nicholasjh** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:14 am

I know this is an old thread, but I think it's still relevant. having read the results it actually looks like Secretion remained the same on cpap treated patients, but the blood levels lowered. The supposition they made is that since the apnea is treated the BDNF may actually be used up in repair. so the study is not seeing it as a dysfunction caused by the CPAP at all. so anything that raises BDNF secretion could help in brain repair.

chunkyfrog · Post by **chunkyfrog** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:20 am

Odd, in this thread all the guests except ONE show the "also posted as--" list.
I wonder what is going on . . .
Hmmmmm . . .

nicholasjh1 · Post by **nicholasjh1** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:31 am

I'm not sure, I just posted as a guest and that's what shows up. maybe the guest list shows as alphabetical and some names get cut off due to how many it will show.

chunkyfrog · Post by **chunkyfrog** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:32 am

---But NONE?
I smell old carp.

nicholasjh1 · Post by **nicholasjh1** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:43 am

whatever dude, I'm not sure what conspiracy you're implying here, but it's all in your imagination.

nicholasjh1 · Post by **nicholasjh1** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:02 am

BTW here is a new article saying that CPAP combined with aerobic exercise still increases BDNF, so Exercise may be an important part of Apnea recovery!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... xVHtkk1WTQ

Conclusion
The present study in healthy young men showed that
5 days of aerobic exercise at 60% of pretraining VO2max
for 30 min/day increased serum BDNF levels when performed
with NPPV/CPAP, whereas no such effect was
noted by the same exercise alone (ie, without NPPV/
CPAP). The results suggest that NPPV/CPAP seems to
enhance the effects of exercise on serum BDNF and
that, based on increased serum BDNF levels, exercise
combined with NPPV/CPAP is a potentially beneficial
training protocol for health benefits.

Edit: link fixedish (you have to copy and paste)

Brain-derived neurotrphic factor and CPAP

Brain-derived neurotrphic factor and CPAP

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Re: Brain-derived neurotrphic factor and CPAP