Update - Positional Sleep Apnea Therapy

jnk wrote:On the other hand, this site is staffed with dozens of people who provide extended talk about therapy without ever being screened upfront for emotional disorders.



Cuts both ways, don't it!

Your comment makes no sense to me.

If talk therapists gave advice to get sleep studies, get data-capable machines, avoid sleeping on your back, get a heated hose, turn your humidifier up, turn your humidifier down, try a different mask, etc., they would be of some high value to their patients.

I don't see that it "cuts both ways".

Cuda wrote:It may cut both ways but one happens a lot more than the other, at least it did with me. I was told I had anxiety, depression, bi-polar, needed a shrink and on and on for 25 years never once did they mention a sleep study despite wicked insomnia. When CPAP works every problem I had over all that time just vanishes. If I would have stuck with the CPAP settings from the sleep doc I would still be sick. Thanks to this forum and taking control over my own therapy I am getting SOME relief and expect more as time passes.

I have also noticed OSA is much worse on my back than on my side.

I once heard a combo psych/sleep doc say outright:

'School used to teach docs that psychological problems cause bad sleep; now school teaches that bad sleep causes psychological problems. And I agree. In fact, in my practice, those with sleep problems who have got them solved have been all eventually been able to come completely off medication.'--Paraphrase of unnamed psychiatrist-slash-sleep-doc overheard when speaking off the record.

Anecdotal? Yeah. But still. I heard it.

NightMonkey wrote:Your comment makes no sense to me.

Sorry, NightMonkey. It's a running gag with me that I enjoy giving sleep advice but have never claimed to be particularly emotionally stable. My humor doesn't always translate well on the printed page.

But, hey, I consider cpaptalk.com to be group talk therapy. Just cheaper, more entertaining, and filled with a bunch of crazy people who happen to make more sense than most of the sane docs who don't know a PAP machine from a leaf blower.

Did that analogy just make sense? See, I never know. That's my point. I think.

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Has anyone tried using gravity boots?

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jnk wrote:
I once heard a combo psych/sleep doc say outright:

'School used to teach docs that psychological problems cause bad sleep; now school teaches that bad sleep causes psychological problems. And I agree. In fact, in my practice, those with sleep problems who have got them solved have been all eventually been able to come completely off medication.'--Paraphrase of unnamed psychiatrist-slash-sleep-doc overheard when speaking off the record.

Anecdotal? Yeah. But still. I heard it.

Anecdotal of what? You describe him as a sleep doc not a talk therapist. I would expect sleep docs to know that.

I hope he is right about what schools are now teaching - all schools.

I have never been to a talk therapist and don't even know where or what training they get. (No I don't have time to google that tonight). But wherever talk therapists are trained, I bet the schools are not rushing to change the teaching to

now school teaches that bad sleep causes psychological problems.

That approach would put the talk therapy industry on the skids big time as a large portion of their market switched from talk to cpap.

BTW, are you mixing up psychiatrists and talk therapists (mental health counselors). My understanding is that psychiatrists are MDs and prescribe medicines and these days don't do much talk therapy. Talk therapists are rarely MDs and cannot prescribe medicines (and are not motivated to screen for sleep disorders).

CPAP knocked me off so many meds people that own stock in pharmaceutical companies might have to retire a bit later than planned. My vision even improved.

NightMonkey wrote:Anecdotal of what?

I meant merely anecdotal in the sense of not really being proof or scientific evidence of anything beyond that one doc's personal experience.

NightMonkey wrote:You describe him as a sleep doc not a talk therapist. I would expect sleep docs to know that.

Then you expect more out of the average sleep doc than I do.

NightMonkey wrote: BTW, are you mixing up psychiatrists and talk therapists (mental health counselors).

Yes, I believe I have managed to mix up a few of them in my time. But I mostly just mix up patients now.

NightMonkey wrote: My understanding is that psychiatrists are MDs and prescribe medicines and these days don't do much talk therapy. Talk therapists are rarely MDs and cannot prescribe medicines (and are not motivated to screen for sleep disorders).

I agree that there are pros who medicate and pros who talk, but I think the best of the best do both in combination or one or the other according to specific need of specific patient. But, yes, it generally takes a doc to prescribe meds, although there are ways around that in practice.

And I think the really good ones are quick to point to practical steps, like treating SDB, when they know about it, as in have heard and seen the results for themselves. The problem is getting the word out. It takes the Internet to do that, in my not-so-humble opinion.

NightMonkey wrote:ems, Show me one therapist who screens all patients for sleep disorders upfront and sends the positives to sleep doctors and it will give your statement some credence.

My therapist. If I had listened to him a year and one-half ago, I would have started CPAP a year and one-half sooner. He didn't "screen", but suggested I go for a sleep study.

Hi All

If you want therapists to "screen" for obstructive sleep apnea, then lets also include

dentists
teachers
politicians
bus drivers
taxi drivers
all democrats
all republicans
sales assistants
train conductors
garage attendants
help line answerers
and last but not least -
Primary Care Physicians

Now can we get back to Positional Sleep Apnea Therapy .

The full report mentioned in the first post can be found at

http://www.antisnoreshirt.com/v/vspfile ... graphy.pdf

and a more generalised overview

http://www.ehow.com/about_5183851_posit ... apnea.html

to which I will add that I no longer use a cervical collar, but advise all those experimenting to start by using one

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/320440581455?hlp=false

I now use a cervical neck support pillow

http://www.the-pillow.com.au/more/compl ... l_more.php

and to keep me on my side

http://www.the-pillow.com.au/more/posit ... w_more.php

at my back, and

http://www.the-pillow.com.au/more/side_ ... r_more.php

between my thighs (also minimises PLMD)

This is probably more useful than anything at my back

and, of course, my trusty oximeters - CMS50E and CMC60D.

Remember that my favoured position is just me, yours might be entirely different (see Mike above for an example ). An earlier post on this subject was at - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=61509&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... bmi+roster

cheers

Mars

PS Good to see JNK has not lost his gentle trollish touch, which is always a delight

ems wrote:

NightMonkey wrote:ems, Show me one therapist who screens all patients for sleep disorders upfront and sends the positives to sleep doctors and it will give your statement some credence.

My therapist. If I had listened to him a year and one-half ago, I would have started CPAP a year and one-half sooner. He didn't "screen", but suggested I go for a sleep study.

Well that is something, but not much.

I could not with good conscience continue to practice talk therapy on a patient for 18 months when I suspected a sleep disorder. Every session would begin with, "Have you had a sleep study yet?" and end with, "I have to discontinue your therapy unless you immediately make an appointment to see a sleep doc."

mars wrote: Positional Sleep Apnea Therapy - Not To Be Ignored

Yes Mars, it is a very good thing you have done to bring this study to the attention of the forum.

IMO, it is important enough that it deserves its own permanent place at the top of the discussion list.

Thank you.

I had 20 years of apnea before it was diagnosed. I kept telling doctors and psych people that I had "unusually vivid" dreams of choking in my bed, either choking on my own or having someone break into my house and choke me. I mean, I'd have the choking dream, then wake up out of breath and I'd see the room from the exact same perspective I had in the dream. In hindsight, I was choking during REM and waking up enough in the dream to catch a glimpse of the room, so when I fully woke up afterwards, sweating and panicky, it would only be a few moments later. And really, they were nothing like my other dreams that bounce around between random events.

So choking every night for 20 years did give me anxiety, but it wasn't going to go away by talking about my childhood, etc--all that therapy and meds were in vain, and no one picked up on the choking to think of apnea. Supposedly it just meant I had been choked in the past and my conscious mind was suppressing the trauma--wrong!

The anxiety has abated post-CPAP, but I still have an anxious day when the mask leaks and I have a bad apnea night.

mars wrote: PS Good to see JNK has not lost his gentle trollish touch, which is always a delight

Hey, who're you callin' "GENTLE," Pal????!!!!

Just for that, I will attempt a hijack.

Oh, wait. Already did that. Never mind.

As long as we don't ignore the fact that my trolljack therapy is always positional.

Mike6977 wrote:.

Has anyone tried using gravity boots?

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That is a batty idea.

NightMonkey wrote:

Mike6977 wrote:.

Has anyone tried using gravity boots?

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That is a batty idea.

Ha! I actually got that one!



NOW we're back on topic!!!