CPAP Heretics

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
jnk
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Re: CPAP Heretics

Post by jnk » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:44 pm

McSleepy wrote:Do you see what I'm getting at?
Nope. No idea. But that's OK.

My relationship with my doctors cannot be reduced to a simple business transaction, since it involves ethics, laws, and basic human rights. If you see the relationship differently, well, I wish you all the best with that, Mac. Just don't ask me to go along for that ride by my giving up my basic human rights in the way that you seem so willing to do.

My docs have no problem with me adjusting my own pressures. My primary doc, in fact, encourages it enthusiastically, and he is as AMA as they come. So just because a few docs are secretive, don't blame medicine as a whole. Only the bad docs are secretive. The good docs put the patient first and are there to share information, not hide it. If you've never met one of those, I suggest you go looking. They are out there. You just have to look for them.

IMO.

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Slinky
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Re: CPAP Heretics

Post by Slinky » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:18 pm

Right on, jnk!! I have been blessed w/some great doctors. But I can tell you doctor shopping "ain't no fun" when it is necessary to do so!!! And sometimes I've put up w/a "mediocre" doc until I find a good one to replace him.

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Sleepy Tiger
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Re: CPAP Heretics

Post by Sleepy Tiger » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:48 pm

I was a good boy and tried it the DME's way for 2 years and I haven't gotten the most out of my therapy. I had to pitch a fit in my doctor's office after I'd complained about being fatigued all the time and was told I was "normal" based on a blood test in the first place! That's when I got a sleep study -- lo and behold I had OSA. Score 1 for taking control of your situation.

The DME doesn't call me to remind me when I need new supplies. I learned the hard way that mask fit plays a pretty big role in your therapy. Just by being a hosehead, there's a certain level of your own therapy that you're responsible for.

I just think that, in order to really own your therapy, you must - to some extent - become your own doctor. There are just too many variables and the real doctor and DME isn't there for you 24/7/365. What works in "most" cases might not work for you.

The machine doesn't blow-up if you move it into clinical mode. Do it. Own it. Just don't use it to blow leaves and you'll be fine.

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Re: CPAP Heretics

Post by McSleepy » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:50 am

If you don't see what I'm getting at, let me explain a little but further. And bare in mind, I am not trying to change anyone's convictions, just trying to make it clear that on a social (not personal) scale, things are a little more complicated and, thus, need to be kept separate. As I've said repeatedly, you have the right to expect, demand, shop around, etc., for yourself as much as you want. But you need to separate your personal desire (which is very much like mine and others on this board) from having this arrangement put in place as a norm for everybody. To you a doctor who tries to micromanage the patient is bad, but you need to understand that to many others, and society as a whole, it might be good (albeit, in a rather convoluted way). And your human rights (isn't that always the case) might interfere with others' human rights (i.e., the doctors and health care in general being run as a business).

To take an example, let's say there is a law that allows patients to buy just about any medication they want without a prescription. It's you health, you have the knowledge, you should have the right to take what you believe is right for you. (And, believe me, I myself have had some many instances of this being so true for me.) I don't even need to describe the bad things that would happen in such case. Even though such arrangement would work for you and me, and many other people, it would be a disaster for most others.

What I'm trying to say is that if you want to demand something for yourself (even if it's a right) is perfectly fine, but if you expect that to be turned into a rule (again, even if it's a right to be given to people), it is a whole different story. Also, because now there is a group (the medical profession) that might feel their rights are violated (remember, they are still liable for any bad consequences to their patients). I strongly doubt that any of those doctors that you felt were bad felt even a bit sorry to lose you as a patient. But they'd cry "socialism" if you tried to impose your desire for freedom on their practice as it concerns other patients, who might not want or need it. You might feel that you defend the rights of people who don't know better, but isn't history full of examples, where that has turned out to be wrong?

It is not just the specific issue in point discussed here (i.e., whether patients should have the right to manage their own health care) but it is the general context of how things work in reality and how real gains are achieved. The "all-or-nothing" attitude could work for individuals but it rarely is able to make real advancement on a social scale. Think of it this way: if you were a politician who is trying to change things, what approach would give you the best results? Realistically?

McSleepy

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LinkC
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Re: CPAP Heretics

Post by LinkC » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:33 am

Hmmmm...

OK, I have the "right" to work on my own vehicle. I CHOOSE to pay a mechanic to do it for me because he is more knowledgeable and practiced at it. If I WERE to do it myself and screwed something up (been there!), I would suffer the consequences. Not my mechanic.
McSleepy wrote:Even though such arrangement would work for you and me, and many other people, it would be a disaster for most others.
Really? Who? And on what do you base your assumption?

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Re: CPAP Heretics

Post by McSleepy » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:14 am

LinkC wrote:Hmmmm...

OK, I have the "right" to work on my own vehicle. I CHOOSE to pay a mechanic to do it for me because he is more knowledgeable and practiced at it. If I WERE to do it myself and screwed something up (been there!), I would suffer the consequences. Not my mechanic.
The responsibility and liability of mechanics doesn't even come close to that of doctors, yet they certainly reserve the right to not tell you much about what they'll do to your vehicle.
LinkC wrote:
McSleepy wrote:Even though such arrangement would work for you and me, and many other people, it would be a disaster for most others.
Really? Who? And on what do you base your assumption?
No doubt. All those people who believe have the knowledge but actually don't, yet are brave enough to experiment with their health. On many levels, with actual examples in real life: from people who took a medicine that just made them worse ("but I've already taken 12 Zofrans and I'm still nauseous!"), to those who suffered really bad consequences and ended up suing the pharmaceutical companies, making medications that much more expensive. Just look at case law for all the examples. I'm not saying it is not a feasible situation (it certainly exists in some countries) but for a society that is not ready for it, it would be a disaster.
McSleepy

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Re: CPAP Heretics

Post by chunkyfrog » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:34 am

I don't need a prescription to buy a glucometer, test strips, and lancets--just money.
I also don't need a prescription for an inversion chair--I don't even have to have it assembled by a professional.
Luckily, I 'spotted' for my DH on his first 'ride'--he could have dropped himself on his head!

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LinkC
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Re: CPAP Heretics

Post by LinkC » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:17 pm

So, you have "no doubt"...but also no examples, no statistics and nothing but your own assumptions to back up your claim. As I suspected.

Do you even KNOW of anyone who self-medicated and successfully sued their doctor for malpractice as a result of what THEY did and not the Dr? Just one case...

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jnk
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Re: CPAP Heretics

Post by jnk » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:45 pm

McSleepy wrote: . . . you have the right to expect, demand, . . .
I agree 100%. And by the same token, of course, a doctor has a right (in some specific circumstances, anyway) to refuse to treat me at all if I am asking him to do something he is not comfortable with or if he feels threatened by what I attempt to do in conjunction with his treatment. BUT, that said, the doc has NO right to hide information from me that is needed for me to make informed decisions about treatments he recommends should be administered to the body that belongs to me.
McSleepy wrote: . . . a doctor who tries to micromanage the patient . . .
It is not micromanaging for a doctor to offer his help. That is his job, offering to be helpful. But it is nevertheless illegal for him to attempt to force his help on me or to deny me the opportunity to look elsewhere for help or to deny me the opportunity to help myself.
McSleepy wrote: . . if you expect that to be turned into a rule . . .
Actually, the point is that it is already a rule--just a rule that too many patients are sadly unaware of.

I hope no one misreads your words and concludes that there are no rules in place to protect patients' rights to have a say in their own treatment. Patients already have the right to decide for themselves what they will and will not accept and will and will not do in conjunction with any doctor's recommendations. For example, to use your own analogy, a doc can only write the Rx for the pill. He cannot force you to buy it or force you to take it in the dosage he recommends. And in most cases, he would be jailed if he forced it down your throat if you are a conscious, rational, adult patient. Furthermore, most OTC drugs are much, much, much more dangerous that a few-cm change in airway pressure to optimize PAP therapy.

The big problem is that too many patients are asserting their rights to refuse PAP therapy completely because they find it uncomfortable or ineffective at the pressure(s) prescribed. And they have the legal right to refuse it, although there could be legal repercussions if they operate heavy machinery. The better situation would be that, instead of asserting their right to refuse it altogether, they would use that very same legally-protected right to find a pressure that was comfortable and effective for them themselves.

Do you see my point that any argument that a patient has no right to change pressures is also an argument that a patient has no right to quit using the machine, which is something no one believes?

In review, if a patient has the right to refuse CPAP and to suffer the consequences, then obviously a patient has the right to refuse 12 cm and accept 13 cm or 11 cm, especially if that saves his life and makes that life worth living, regardless of what some pouty, lousy doc might think about that legally-protected choice.

I repeat: Patients, you have no need to fill out a form to assert your rights to choose whether or not you accept PAP or at what level. You already have that right. Just use it. It is nice when a doc respects your rights and continues to be helpful once he finds out you are participating in your therapy. Good docs will do exactly that. Always. They may be willing to make pressure decisions without you, but it is illegal for them to do so without your permission, just as it would be illegal for them to make your medication decisions independent of you by forcing pills down your throat without your permission.

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Re: CPAP Heretics

Post by McSleepy » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:31 pm

LinkC wrote:So, you have "no doubt"...but also no examples, no statistics and nothing but your own assumptions to back up your claim. As I suspected.

Do you even KNOW of anyone who self-medicated and successfully sued their doctor for malpractice as a result of what THEY did and not the Dr? Just one case...
Wow, so, the fact that I didn't volunteer to do the work collecting all that information proves it doesn't exist or that I can't find it? Do you show extensive proof to everything you say? I said that many people have gotten worse from taking something on their own that made them worse, and I know myself a few examples, and I'm sure many other people do (e.g., the widespread addiction to painkillers). I also said that those who suffered bad consequences would sue the pharmaceutical companies (never said anything about the doctor because a doctor was not involved, that was the whole point), and I can immediately give you an example with something that affected me (the Pseudoephedrine saga), I could look up plenty of others. But if you don't want to believe that, you would probably never accept them as good examples, why should I spend the time then. After all, my point was about something that would happen and if it did, there would be plenty more examples. But, I'm not asking you to agree with me, I'm just stating my point of view.
McSleepy

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McSleepy
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Re: CPAP Heretics

Post by McSleepy » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:40 pm

jnk, as I said, we don't really disagree - I never said that the patient should have no right to change the pressure on their machine. My point was that the medical profession had the right to, how to best phrase this, not help you with it. See, the whole discussion started with the criticism of any and all doctors who do not think that is a good idea. While it is true that doctors should have a little more differentiated approach towards patients, I contend that it cannot be generalized. The patient may have the right to do certain things but the doctor also has the right to refuse certain things, and it cannot all be blamed on malice or bad intentions. My point is: there is a conflict in the process of establishing the rights in the doctor-patient relationship and resolving it is not straightforward.
McSleepy

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Re: CPAP Heretics

Post by ameriken » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:27 pm

McSleepy wrote:jnk, as I said, we don't really disagree - I never said that the patient should have no right to change the pressure on their machine. My point was that the medical profession had the right to, how to best phrase this, not help you with it. See, the whole discussion started with the criticism of any and all doctors who do not think that is a good idea. While it is true that doctors should have a little more differentiated approach towards patients, I contend that it cannot be generalized. The patient may have the right to do certain things but the doctor also has the right to refuse certain things, and it cannot all be blamed on malice or bad intentions. My point is: there is a conflict in the process of establishing the rights in the doctor-patient relationship and resolving it is not straightforward.
McSleepy
I don't have a problem with them not helping me with it, and I think most folks here would agree because we can and do take control of our own care. If that's the case, then they can just say "we won't help you with your machine".

However what I think most people don't like is the negative "you just did a bad bad bad thing" kind of reaction they get from the medical community. Generally speaking, it seems like if you say something about changing your own pressure, the reaction from the medical community is like you just practiced Satanic Worship on the alter of a Christian Church.
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Re: CPAP Heretics

Post by McSleepy » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:07 pm

Staying on the subject, you won't believe the email I just got from my daughter's teacher (5th grade). This morning I gave my daughter some Halls cough drops (the regular kind, active ingredient - 3.2mg of menthol) so she could relieve her scratchy throat at school. My daughter asked the teacher if it was all right to take them during class (some teachers do not allow candy), and the teacher confiscated them and took them to the nurse, after which she emailed me about it with a CC to the nurse. I realize they have some liabilities, so I only calmly responded that I didn't think those could be qualified as "medication" (which is regulated at school) and asked about their criteria for determining what constitutes a medication. As it stands, you can only bring doctor-prescribed medication, but it's not clear what that is, so in mean time, apparently, nothing goes. Isn't that ironic?
McSleepy

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ResMed AirCurve 10 VAuto; Puritan-Bennett Breeze nasal pillow mask; healthy, active, middle-aged man; tall, athletic build; stomach sleeper; on CPAP since 2003; lives @ 5000 ft; surgically-corrected deviated septum and turbinates; regular nasal washes