Issues about using a mask without the anti-asphixia valve??

I realize you guys are discussing a possible serious issue and weren't trying to be funny, however I had tears streaming out laughing so hard following this thread!
Thanks for the info AND the laughs. I'll keep all this in mind next time there's a storm in my area, while Raccoons with suicidal tendances running amuck, climbing utility poles and being electrocuted causing power outages and therefor testing if my anti-asphyxia valve is working properly or not.

archangle wrote:

kempo wrote:Is there a case that we can point to where a person died from asphyxiation because the power went out while using their cpap?.

I would like to here about it.

No coroner in the USA is going to bother to investigate such a death. They're public officials with what they consider to be inadequate budgets. They're either politicians or political appointees. They're only interested in cases of foul play or newsworthy things that are going to hurt others.

Once he decides it wasn't murder, he's going to be looking for the easiest way to fill in his paperwork.

In order to suffocate from a failed CPAP machine, you'd have to have a full face mask with a failed anti-asphyxia valve or someone who taped their mouth.

The junior assistant to the deputy coroner is going to see someone who's so sick they were on breathing equipment who died in their sleep. To make the connection, he'd have to understand CPAP, understand anti-asphyxia valves, and realize the CPAP had failed during the night. Then his first thought would be that the victim died from a heart attack, stroke, etc. because his throat collapsed without CPAP. How is he going to distinguish dying from rebreathing his exhaled air from dying because his apnea cut off his airflow.

Presumably, there is medical documentation of the deceased having a condition that could kill him without CPAP. Do you really think a public official is going to look any deeper to find out the details of why an apneac died without CPAP?

If he says it was caused by asphyxiation due to mouth taping or a removed anti-asphyxia valve, the family is going to be upset for him telling them dad died from stupidity. Or he's going to be dragged into a lawsuit if there's some way to blame the manufacturer.

The easiest way for him to "do his job" is to simply say he died of complications of sleep apnea.

Don't you think it is a stretch to say all coroners are too big of a dumbass or just too lazy to find out why a person died? I have worked with coroners over the years and they were all very professional people.

With all of the people using cpap equipment, thousands all across this country, where every other commercial on TV is a lawyer saying call me and we will sue the crap out of them, you can't show me one case where a person died of asphyxiation because the power went out.

Yes I will continue using tape!

Thank You

Kody wrote:I realize you guys are discussing a possible serious issue and weren't trying to be funny, however I had tears streaming out laughing so hard following this thread!
Thanks for the info AND the laughs. I'll keep all this in mind next time there's a storm in my area, while Raccoons with suicidal tendances running amuck, climbing utility poles and being electrocuted causing power outages and therefor testing if my anti-asphyxia valve is working properly or not.

You are right, this thread has some funny lines!!

But the suicidal raccoons story isn't mine, it was from the lady who owned the lodge. The charm of this place is their cabins, which are located inside a jungle, a quarter of a mile from a secondary road. Although it is very close to a small town, there might be some issues about electricity not working all day. For instance, earlier this year, I didn't go to a rafting trip, since the expected place to spend the night worked with a power generator working until 10 pm. Lesson learned, now I ask before deciding where to stay in a place not in a populated area.

So I asked the lady about electricity issues and she told me everything works fine but some times they have trouble because of animals climbing electricity poles because of heavy rain saturating the terrain and inundating the jungle floor. She mentioned last time it was a raccoon. Poor guy!

At least she didn't mentioned anyone dying of asphixyation using a cpap machine not working due to power failure!

kempo wrote:Yes I will continue using tape!

Thank You

Have you given the info to your family to tell us if you die with tape on your lips?

HoseCrusher wrote:Having recently experienced a power outage I can tell you that I immediately noticed the change in the feel of the mask and woke up.

I slept for over an hour with my mouth closed trying to breathe through nasal pillows when I hadn't checked the mail for a couple of days and missed a notice of a planned power shutoff. I woke up very tired, I expect from the work to breathe without the cpap on. I was surprised I didn't wake up. I was only a little surprised that I hadn't started breathing through my mouth since I have a very hard time when I have to breathe through my mouth I was only a little surprised. Even though I have switched to a full face mask because it is harder to breathe out with nasal pillows, I still plan to buy a power off alarm.

archangle wrote:

kempo wrote:Yes I will continue using tape!

Thank You

Have you given the info to your family to tell us if you die with tape on your lips?

So you are wanting an asphyxiation example to point at when you go on your rant about taping, me! LOL

Look people who come to this forum are already filled with anxiety about having to use a machine to sleep at night and they don't need you trying to scare the hell out of them.

YES! taping is the last resort. YES I would rather NOT have to do it but I have to so I can get the therapy I need. There are many, many people who do with no asphyxiation problems. I have a closet full of mask that don't work.

Now if you are going to scare people about this so called problem, give us some examples!

I along with everyoe else on this forum would like to read about it!

kempo wrote:
Now if you are going to scare people about this so called problem, give us some examples!

I along with everyone else on this forum would like to read about it!

Can we also get some examples of those who died from taping, using non-distilled water, not using a surge protector, buying a discontinued machine or one that isn't fully data-capable, using the wrong power cord for their battery, DMEs who overcharge, not buying supplies from the Chinese, hoses that are too short...and--God forbid--not knowing how to spell "angel".

kempo wrote:Now if you are going to scare people about this so called problem, give us some examples!

I keep trying, but none of my experimental animals will tell their relatives to send the data here to this forum when they die from taping their mouths.

Why are you opposed to telling people about a risk and letting them make their own decision? Just because you do something the experts say is dangerous, should we tell others it's not dangerous.

If you decided to not wear seatbelts, would you tell everyone that because you haven't been killed yet, they don't need to bother with them?

archangle wrote: Why are you opposed to telling people about a risk and letting them make their own decision?

That's fine if it's an objective assessment of REAL (not imagined) risk. And includes the potential rewards so they can make an informed decision. But, from certain people, that's not what we usually hear.

I KNOW of instances where people walking down the sidewalk have been killed by careening vehicles. Do you think I should tell everyone I meet "Don't use sidewalks, you could be hit by a car!"? I would hope not. The odds are too slim. And the benefit is sufficient for most people to make that informed decision.

Why are YOU opposed to saying: "Even tho we make emergency tabs on both ends of the tape; there's a slight chance you might not wake up to use them if your machine fails in the night. I've never heard of anyone being killed, or even injured; but the risk is there. And, for some people, taping is the only solution. It's your call."

LinkC wrote:
Why are YOU opposed to saying: "Even tho we make emergency tabs on both ends of the tape; there's a slight chance you might not wake up to use them if your machine fails in the night. I've never heard of anyone being killed, or even injured; but the risk is there. And, for some people, taping is the only solution. It's your call."

I have no opposition to you saying that. Feel free to make a wimpy warning like that if you want to.

Who's going to bother with making emergency tabs on both ends of the tape or take other precautions if they don't realize that there is a risk of asphyxiation or aspiration pneumonia?

Why don't you work with the mask manufacturers to get them to eliminate those unnecessary anti-asphyxia valves. Or make one on your own and try to get the FDA to approve it?

LinkC wrote: I KNOW of instances where people walking down the sidewalk have been killed by careening vehicles. Do you think I should tell everyone I meet "Don't use sidewalks, you could be hit by a car!"? I would hope not. The odds are too slim. And the benefit is sufficient for most people to make that informed decision.

To continue your analogy, I'm telling someone who jogs a mile every night in my neighborhood to watch out for drunk drivers. You're telling them that since I don't have a police report listing drunk driver as a cause of a fatality in my particular neighborhood, they should ignore my advice, and it's OK to jog on the streets using their mp3 player and texting on the phone.

archangle wrote:To continue your analogy, I'm telling someone who jogs a mile every night in my neighborhood to watch out for drunk drivers. You're telling them that since I don't have a police report listing drunk driver as a cause of a fatality in my particular neighborhood, they should ignore my advice, and it's OK to jog on the streets using their mp3 player and texting on the phone.

Um, no. IF your neighborhood HAS a history of drunk drivers, tell him so. If not, why bring it up? (Remember the part about REAL vs. IMAGINED risks? You don't seem to have grasped the concept.)

I know of cases where pedestrians have been injured/killed due to mp3/iPod/texting. It's in the paper often. (That's a "REAL" one.) If you are the neighborhood busy-body (it's a hunch...) feel free to lecture them, if you can keep up while they jog desperately out of earshot.

OK, this topic had me currious. So I went off to do a simple test and see what I discovered. Before I explain the results let me say this.

The big concern seems to be from someone ending up dead when the power goes out, And their CPAP mask does not have a source of Fresh air. Either due to a faulty / non existant asphyxiation valvue, or from a nasal mask and mouth tapeing. The concern if stressed due to the real world issue of being in a confined space, using up the oxygen in the space and passing out from CO2 build up, low oxygen.

In a close space enviroment, or a enviroment with plenty of air, but a lack of fresh air. A preson has un restricted breathing. There lungs can expand and they do not feel as if the air way is blocked. Thus this issue can sneak up on a person as they do not realize their Blood O2 levels drop as the amount of Oxygen in each breath drops.. To the point that they black out, and finnly die.

For this to work the same way with a CPAP without a source of fresh air, I would suspect that a person would still need to be able to draw breath while on a powered off CPAP, be it through a Nasal Mask or FF Mask without a Asphyxiation port. So in order to do my own simple test, I went up, taped up the Asphyxiation Port on my FFM, and laid down without either the Machine on, or the Oxygen Concentrator running. (i.e. No source of Air from that) I found it took a lot of effort to draw in much of a breath as the only air inlet was through the Mask's venting holes. Same thing for breathing out. It only took me a couple of breaths for the whole 'crap I can't breathe panic to set in'. I suspect the same reflex that keeps us from dropping dead from untreated Apena works here. We can't breathe so the body panics.

Granted this is just a simple test. And I am coming to conclusions. And Xpap's are all made diffrent. But my thoughts are that in order to meet the end that Archangle is listing through loss of power to CPAP. Your CPAP/Bipap would need to allow you to take normal unobstructed breaths off it while powered down. The Vent holes in the mask are not large engouth to pass that much air. So your Machine would have to freely pass air past the blower when it is off.

Just some thoughts.

Well, hopefully everyone who's been paying attention is aware of the risks, and will make informed decisions about these issues.

I tape. My girlfriend knows about this site. If I croak in my sleep, she'll let y'all know!