Is my OSA/sleep apnea diagnosis a scam?

BlackSpinner · Post by **BlackSpinner** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:35 pm

PhoebeDear wrote:I think sleep apnea is way over-diagnosed as a new money maker for the physician, the sleep study clinic and the folk that sell the CPAP machine. I am a 62 year old unmarried woman, who fits the category of baby boomer ' age 60 is now the new age 50. In other words, I just sent my kid off to college and got started dating again. I spent the night with a nice fellow, who in the morning informed me that I snore. Never heard from him again...so I went to a young ENT doctor with credentials and awards mentioned all over his website and asked to be treated for snoring. He said the insurance would not pay for snoring treatment unless I could be diagnosed with sleep apnea. I asked if I could just pay out of pocket for treatment and he scoffed at the idea and said it was 'too expensive'.
.
.
.

I am sure that for people that are falling asleep throughout the day and can hardly drag themselves out of bed every morning- even though they allow the full 8 hours for sleep- a CPAP machine is a life-saver... but it looks to me that they just want to ensnare as many people into this CPAP trap as they can. When I left that sleep clinic, it was several weeks before I got over how intimidating the whole process was. I mean, think about it, breathing is right up there in importance as your heart beat...and when a "medical expert" tells you that you can't do it without a device- because some squiggly lines on a sleep study says so- it it pretty mind blowing- & I had to convince myself - even though I am symptom free-except for the snoring- that those 'experts' were wrong and to do my own thing. What a scam.

I am glad you studied the situation so well you know how to read sleep studies, you have investigated the consequences and are happy to live with the threat of heart failure, diabetes, strokes, fibrmyalgia and a dozen other possible chronic illnesses.

By the way - whole will change your Depends for you?

Denial - not just a river in Egypt.

ozze_dollar · Post by **ozze_dollar** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:08 am

ResmedUser wrote:I sincerely believe if I had been aggressively treated immediately after my original diagnosis for OSA which happened in Fall 2000, I could have salvaged most of my thirties. Instead, I lost the prime of my life due to untreated OSA.

Does that answer your question?

Also, I believe Id probably be in law school now if my OSA had been treated in 2000 instead of 2007. Now I doubt I will ever make it to law school.

Mikey

Interesting that you say that.I think i would not have retired so early if i had been treated much earlier. My wifes feels that too.

sleepless in NJ · Post by **sleepless in NJ** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:21 am

If there is so much sleep apnea how come thousands of people where not found dead in their beds every year before this great discovery?
EVERYONE I know who is sent for a sleep study ends up needing
the machines which cost $$$$. The technician who came to set up my husband's machine barely could communicate with us.
There are thousands of partners now sleeping in separate rooms due to the noise, which drives me crazy.
Where are the clinical trials comparing sleep studies on people without apnea?

JohnBFisher · Post by **JohnBFisher** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:50 am

sleepless in NJ wrote:If there is so much sleep apnea how come thousands of people where not found dead in their beds every year before this great discovery?
EVERYONE I know who is sent for a sleep study ends up needing
the machines which cost $$$$. The technician who came to set up my husband's machine barely could communicate with us.
There are thousands of partners now sleeping in separate rooms due to the noise, which drives me crazy.
Where are the clinical trials comparing sleep studies on people without apnea?

What a ...!! No. That's not nice. So, let's look at some facts.

Fact: People DID die from this. Lots and lots of them. I am certain my grandfather had undiagnosed obstructive sleep apnea. If you heard him snoring, you would KNOW for certain that was the case. But at the time, it was not an understood problem. There was no diagnosis for obstructive sleep apnea. So, one day, he sat down (as always) to watch TV. He never woke up from that nap.

He is but one example of many thousands of people who died much younger than people do now.

Fact: Yes, the machines cost money. But they cost a LOT less today than they did a mere 10 years ago. And that's not counting inflation, which makes the savings even more dramatic.

Fact: Yes, there are lazy and poor DME employees, who can barely communicate. However, that does not mean that all DME employees are like that.

Fact: Yes, these machines can be loud. But for those of us with severe obstructive sleep apnea, it is a lot quieter than the snoring. And there are things you can do that will make it better. Perhaps if you ask you might get some answers.

Fact: There are many, many studies that compare sleep of people with and without apnea:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en ... =&as_vis=0

There are studies that show the impact of obstructive sleep apnea:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=imp ... as_sdtp=on

There are studies that show the benefit of xPAP therapy:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en ... =&as_vis=0

Fact: There are studies enough to conclusively determine that xPAP therapy helps. But there are also plenty of studies that show that some people refuse to believe evidence that is put before them, because THEY know better than everyone.

So, do you want to be in that last category? Do you want to see your husband die young? If so, continue down your current path. Otherwise, go do the research and start to ask questions about what you need to do to make the therapy work for the two of you.

BlackSpinner · Post by **BlackSpinner** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:49 am

sleepless in NJ wrote:If there is so much sleep apnea how come thousands of people where not found dead in their beds every year before this great discovery?
EVERYONE I know who is sent for a sleep study ends up needing
the machines which cost $$$$. The technician who came to set up my husband's machine barely could communicate with us.
There are thousands of partners now sleeping in separate rooms due to the noise, which drives me crazy.
Where are the clinical trials comparing sleep studies on people without apnea?

What, you never read the phrase "Died quietly in their sleep"?

Not everyone gets diagnosed, but most people will because they have already passed a lot of other indicators that that have it. Sleep studies are expensive and not wasted on everyone and their sibling.

To much noise? Would you rather be changing his Depends? Or buy a nice black dress for the funeral? What kind if spouse are you who would wish this on their loved one just because of some "noise". Do the term selfish bitch (or son of a bitch) come to mind? If not, why not?

TheLankyLefty · Post by **TheLankyLefty** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:23 pm

Hey there, I'm a registered sleep disorders technician.

This skepticism isn't anything new in the field. It's true that most people sent in for a sleep study are set up with a CPAP machine. Why?

Because the screening before they are sent in for the study is very straightforward. High blood pressure, witnessed snoring, witnessed apnea, tired during the day, overweight, small airway, difficulty concentrating, memory problems....etc.

This stuff isn't real hard to screen for in the doctors office. They are all big red flags for sleep apnea.

I can understand the frustration when some of the symptoms don't seem to fit. Our sleep is very personal to us. The original post said that he has memory and concentration problems, but never remembers waking up. Classic apnea. Memory and concentration problems speak directly to REM deprivations. (yes, there are studies for this too). Many people never remember waking up from apnea because they only last roughly three seconds. Here is an example: http://www.freecpapadvice.com/Obstructi ... Apnea.html It's no surprise that these awakenings aren't remembered. That doesn't mean that they aren't happening though.

People who set you up on CPAP, some of my fellow Registered Sleep Technologists, and even doctors can bring about these feelings of it being a Scam.

There are some unscrupulous folks out there who are just trying to make a buck.

Apria is a home health care company that has their business set up to herd people in and out as quickly as possible. You're given no choice in mask and no instruction on how to use it or your machine. In my opinion, that's criminal.

Some doctors who have no business reading sleep studies do so because they have deals set up where they get reading fees. If they're not Board Certified in Sleep Medicine, then they are very likely sketchy as hell.

Some of my fellow registered sleep techs are incompetent as well, or the sleep center is set up poorly. Labs try to get people tested, and that's it. They just give you any old mask to get the pressure right, not caring or knowing that this is probably the mask you'll be expected to sleep with. Some doctors and labs don't recognize RERAs( even medicare doesn't....idiot) as being disruptive to sleep. These wake you up, but often aren't titrated for. Many people using CPAP are at too low a pressure, so it doesn't work and they get frustrated. Sometimes the mask sucks, so it doesn't work and they get frustrated. Often it's both.....

It's a somewhat new field. There is so much lack of information and misinformation out there. I have a website where I try to get people to the point where they know what questions they need to ask of their sleep center and sleep doctor.

I can certainly appreciate that people think it's a Scam of some sort. Just know that it is very real, and in the hands of a good sleep lab, sleep doctor, sleep technologist, and home health care company, you can manage your sleep apnea very effectively.

rdfry · Post by **rdfry** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:35 pm

sleepless in NJ wrote:If there is so much sleep apnea how come thousands of people where not found dead in their beds every year before this great discovery?
EVERYONE I know who is sent for a sleep study ends up needing
the machines which cost $$$$. The technician who came to set up my husband's machine barely could communicate with us.
There are thousands of partners now sleeping in separate rooms due to the noise, which drives me crazy.
Where are the clinical trials comparing sleep studies on people without apnea?

no, every one that has a sleep study is not diagnosed with sleep apnea. My wife had a sleep study done last year,geuss what? she does not have sleep apnea.

sickwithapnea17 · Post by **sickwithapnea17** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:15 pm

this disease is for real- you can really suffer even if you are young.
the real scam is these QUACKS at recognized sleep centers and supposed sleep doctors who don't treat this disease seriously and put you on some dental appliance instead of cpap/bipap

having low oxygen levels can damage your organs- eventually you will get high blood pressure, heart disease, maybe even diabetes and brain damage

archangle · Post by **archangle** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:52 pm

sleepless in NJ wrote:If there is so much sleep apnea how come thousands of people where not found dead in their beds every year before this great discovery?
EVERYONE I know who is sent for a sleep study ends up needing
the machines which cost $$$$. The technician who came to set up my husband's machine barely could communicate with us.
There are thousands of partners now sleeping in separate rooms due to the noise, which drives me crazy.
Where are the clinical trials comparing sleep studies on people without apnea?

"If there is so much sleep apnea how come thousands of people where not found dead in their beds every year before this great discovery?"

Apneacs generally don't simply suffocate in their sleep. They usually eventually breathe after an apnea, but suffer from low oxygen level and other problems. These problems can damage the brain, heart, and other organs.

750,000 people a year die from heart attack and stroke. In theory, apnea increases your chances of heart attack and stroke. People who died from sleep apnea would probably show heart attack or stroke as the cause.

Even if it doesn't kill you, apnea can make you tired or sleepy all the time. It damages your body as a whole.

A sleep study can show clear and unmistakable proof of sleep apnea.

I do not trust the medical mafia. I do not like the way they manipulate the sleep apnea treatment process to screw the patients out of the maximum amount of money. However, sleep apnea is real, and if you've got it, you need to treat it.

Re: Noise

There are a lot more people who can't stand their partner's snoring without CPAP than people who can't stand the sound of their partner's CPAP machine.

avi123 · Post by **avi123** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:16 pm

PhoebeDear wrote:I think sleep apnea is way over-diagnosed as a new money maker for the physician, the sleep study clinic and the folk that sell the CPAP machine. I am a 62 year old unmarried woman, who fits the category of baby boomer ' age 60 is now the new age 50. In other words, I just sent my kid off to college and got started dating again. I spent the night with a nice fellow, who in the morning informed me that I snore. Never heard from him again...so I went to a young ENT doctor with credentials and awards mentioned all over his website and asked to be treated for snoring. He said the insurance would not pay for snoring treatment unless I could be diagnosed with sleep apnea. I asked if I could just pay out of pocket for treatment and he scoffed at the idea and said it was 'too expensive'.
I agreed to the sleep study- and when I arrived at the study site, the woman assigned to me stated that the doctor had order use of a CPAP machine during my stay if I showed signs of apnea. She did not explain to me what a "cpap machine' was- just tried a couple of masks on me. At 2am she flips the light on and enters my room & states that she is hooking me up to this electrical device with a hose on it next to my bed. I told her that that was not going to solve my problem (which was being a woman a man would want to snuggle up to in bed-a woman breathing quietly through the night) and she started berating me for not caring about my heart (like I had any idea what connection that had with anything- since no one had bothered to explain anything to me).
She got the masks on me after much protesting on my part, I was so angry that I laid there for an hour thinking ###!!@@@## about this woman who had just verbal attacked me and got this mask on me- which I had no idea how to remove- which was frightening in itself- - so I felt like a tied-up hostage victim. In the morning, when I got home from that, I started my Google search on this. First of all, this young ENT MD did not offer cash and carry for snoring treatment in his office, but I found that many ENT MD's do and that I could either laser the back of my throat to make the soft palate 'tougher' or there is this thing called "the pillar procedure"- I found a new ENT MD that does both of these for cash & carry at $ 2000. which is way less than what my insurance would have ended up paying the first doc. (My out of pocket part of the sleep study was $750- insurance paid $750) New doctor told me to lose 20 pounds too (that would put me at 135lbs I am 5'6" I enjoy working out, and swim laps regularly along with enjoying Zoomba aeobics and weight lifting already- so yeah- 20 pounds would be easy to lose for me. The first doctor did not suggest obesity was a factor- but think about it, more fat around the neck, means a narrower airpassage-that fat is on the inside of the neckarea as well as what you see.

I got a copy of the sleep apnea study done that night. Sure there were some signs of apnea, but I was forced to sleep on my back for 75% of the time- - which only 15% of us do naturally out there- only other position allowed was on my side- and the apnea was very marginal. It also showed that with the CPAP machine I had more incidences of it than breathing on my own.

The second doctor explained how the "CPAP machine" game works... in order to have the insurance approve surgery to correct snoring (which required DX as apnea) I would have had to demonstrate for 90 days of use on the CPAP machine that I was not a good candidate for it. He said in order to do that, I would have to complain regularly during those 90 days to those that my insurance company rented the machine from (at $1000/month) that the mask was a bad fit- until they ran out of masks- (meanwhile more billing to the insurance- probably by the ENT doc as well for office visits to monitor my progress)

Then after wasting 3 months of my life -no dating during that time -because - I'm busy scamming my insurance for CPAP machine failure and with added stress of calling around- driving over to the place that fits the masks (when, on my lunchhour?) and messing with the mask & more rude healthcare people. If I failed to be cranky enough about the mask not fitting right- then the process would stop there & I would have wasted my time & still not have had my snoring corrected. but, if I succeeded in jumping through those hoops, I would then have proven that I was to be a candidate for surgical correction- but not for the 'classic' procedures offered to stop snoring, as they are not approved. Instead it would be more invasive surgery. (do your own google on that) .
Insurance renting the machine $3000- for 90 days- plus the surgery I was seeking out - by the time I was done I figure in less than 6 months no less than $20,000 would have been spent by my insurance & me (wasted money & valuable time) including the surgery they would approve (hopefully) and it would have been the wrong surgery.

For borderline cases, such as mine, I think it is much better to not become dependent on a machine blowing positive air pressure into your lungs all night, as you own diaphragm will get lazy and atrophy- then when you want to sleep without it, for post- love-making sleep or traveling purposes, you won't be able to take deep breaths naturally while asleep, as your body won't want to do it-its been pampered with this air machine gimick. Also, the psychological effect of being so 'deficient' that breathing without the assistance of CPAP just creates a person more and more dependent on the medical system and healthcare workers out there. BTW I need to mention, that when I sought out treatment I felt that my sleep was adequate and I was not tired when I woke up-I feel alert throughout the day. I am working 40 hours a week as a Registered Pharmacist and have a full and active life in my free time. I just happen to snore...and wanted to get it fixed and ran into a messy system setup that seeks out as many victims as they can get those $$$ through said victim's insurance....

I am sure that for people that are falling asleep throughout the day and can hardly drag themselves out of bed every morning- even though they allow the full 8 hours for sleep- a CPAP machine is a life-saver... but it looks to me that they just want to ensnare as many people into this CPAP trap as they can. When I left that sleep clinic, it was several weeks before I got over how intimidating the whole process was. I mean, think about it, breathing is right up there in importance as your heart beat...and when a "medical expert" tells you that you can't do it without a device- because some squiggly lines on a sleep study says so- it it pretty mind blowing- & I had to convince myself - even though I am symptom free-except for the snoring- that those 'experts' were wrong and to do my own thing. What a scam.

Reply:

As I understand it, the Pillar Procedure suppose to replace a CPAP, but you don't talk about it , why?

As to doing a Sleep Apnea test you could do it for about $200 with At Home Sleep Test devices. Check Stacie's post here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=64816&p=613391&hili ... A6#p613391

dahnb2000 · Post by **dahnb2000** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:42 am

Just got my sleep study back. When I sleep in a "non-supine" position, I have no apnea. The Dr. (who also owns the clinics and labs) says I need CPAP or will write DMV to have my license pulled.
I only have apnea on my back! Why not recommending something to keep me from sleeping on my back? No money for the doc.
Put some tennis balls in a sock & put in my shirt last night. No back-sleeping & my wife reported no snoring.
Smells like a scam to me.

Lizistired · Post by **Lizistired** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:21 pm

dahnb2000 wrote:Just got my sleep study back. When I sleep in a "non-supine" position, I have no apnea. The Dr. (who also owns the clinics and labs) says I need CPAP or will write DMV to have my license pulled.
I only have apnea on my back! Why not recommending something to keep me from sleeping on my back? No money for the doc.
Put some tennis balls in a sock & put in my shirt last night. No back-sleeping & my wife reported no snoring.
Smells like a scam to me.

Agreed, your doc sounds like an a$$. I would suggest you contact the sleep clinic and reqest a copy of your full report and condensed graphs. This will give you the detailed information he is using to diagnose you. It will tell you in additional information about your apneas, positions, sleep stages and oxygen desaturations. You will also have it if your condition worsens.
If sleeping with tennis balls does the trick that's great but have all the information to make that decision.

dahnb2000 · Post by **dahnb2000** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:13 pm

Lizistired wrote:
dahnb2000 wrote:Just got my sleep study back. When I sleep in a "non-supine" position, I have no apnea. The Dr. (who also owns the clinics and labs) says I need CPAP or will write DMV to have my license pulled.
I only have apnea on my back! Why not recommending something to keep me from sleeping on my back? No money for the doc.
Put some tennis balls in a sock & put in my shirt last night. No back-sleeping & my wife reported no snoring.
Smells like a scam to me.
Agreed, your doc sounds like an a$$. I would suggest you contact the sleep clinic and reqest a copy of your full report and condensed graphs. This will give you the detailed information he is using to diagnose you. It will tell you in additional information about your apneas, positions, sleep stages and oxygen desaturations. You will also have it if your condition worsens.
If sleeping with tennis balls does the trick that's great but have all the information to make that decision.

I have the study (had to insist on getting a copy & was reluctantly given one). 100% of my sleep apnea occurs in a supine position. The lowest oxygen level I get sleeping on my side was 93%. Never dipped below 75% on my back but averaged 29 episodes per hour so obviously back sleeping is not a good choice for me. I do know a few people who have apnea & are on CPAP. They are going to look into the supine vs non-supine areas of their tests. I'm not saying that CPAP as a whole is a scam. I just feel that this doctor either didn't bother reading the whole report or just is in it for the money. I will ask him this at my next apt & I'll post what happens. I realize that CPAP is a good thing but only if you actually need it. Thanks.

BlackSpinner · Post by **BlackSpinner** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:50 pm

If I were you I would buy your equipment online in that case. There must be some reason why you actually had a sleep study. For some people sleeping only on their side is difficult due to other body issues. Cover your ass and suck it up.

Lizistired · Post by **Lizistired** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:20 pm

dahnb2000 wrote:I have the study (had to insist on getting a copy & was reluctantly given one). 100% of my sleep apnea occurs in a supine position. The lowest oxygen level I get sleeping on my side was 93%. Never dipped below 75% on my back but averaged 29 episodes per hour so obviously back sleeping is not a good choice for me. I do know a few people who have apnea & are on CPAP. They are going to look into the supine vs non-supine areas of their tests. I'm not saying that CPAP as a whole is a scam. I just feel that this doctor either didn't bother reading the whole report or just is in it for the money. I will ask him this at my next apt & I'll post what happens. I realize that CPAP is a good thing but only if you actually need it. Thanks.

What symptoms got you referred for a sleep study?
I would be concerned about the desats to 73%.
I had the same problem, but while I only had 11 apneas "per hour" which were all in REM, I had 49 hypopneas per hour and 300+ spontaneous arrousals over the course of the night. So I wasn't getting into REM to have the apneas. I also didn't think I ever slept on my back and turn over too often to try to restrict my movement. I didn't snore either.
If you think the tennis balls work for you, you might consider spending $100 on a recording oximeter. It won't tell you anything about sleep stages or apneas, but they also have an alarm you can set to go off at whatever low level you want and you can download the data to see what you're O2 levels are doing throughout the night.

Is my OSA/sleep apnea diagnosis a scam?

Re: Yes--- Some people are being Scammed on this

Re: Is my OSA/sleep apnea diagnosis a scam?

Re: Is my OSA/sleep apnea diagnosis a scam?

Re: Is my OSA/sleep apnea diagnosis a scam?

Re: Is my OSA/sleep apnea diagnosis a scam?

Re: Is my OSA/sleep apnea diagnosis a scam?

Re: Is my OSA/sleep apnea diagnosis a scam?

Re: Is my OSA/sleep apnea diagnosis a scam?

Re: Is my OSA/sleep apnea diagnosis a scam?

Re: Yes--- Some people are being Scammed on this

Re: Is my OSA/sleep apnea diagnosis a scam?YES

Re: Is my OSA/sleep apnea diagnosis a scam?YES

Re: Is my OSA/sleep apnea diagnosis a scam?YES

Re: Is my OSA/sleep apnea diagnosis a scam?

Re: Is my OSA/sleep apnea diagnosis a scam?YES