what are the facts? physiology 101

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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robysue
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Re: what are the facts? physiology 101

Post by robysue » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:29 pm

to The Guest and JohnBFisher,

The explanation of REM rebound still does not make sense. Can you provide a link to some scientific or medical literature than discusses this phenomenon? I mean this sincerely---I'd like to see some scientific data/discussion about this issue and how it's been studied.

The idea that I'm spending all my sleep time in REM is intriguing to say the least. I know that it's very possible to get to REM and not remember dreams. For me, most of the time, when I wake up in the morning I can tell that I've been in REM (for a reasonable amount of time) even if I don't remember my dreams. In other words, I can remember that I have dreamed even when I can't remember what I've dreamed about.

During the first two exhausting weeks on CPAP, I didn't wake up feeling like I had done much dreaming---except for the couple of nights I woke up with really bad nightmare dreams of the sort that I never had prior to CPAP. Now, six weeks into therapy, I feel like I am dreaming more like I used to do before CPAP. In other words, on an average morning, I wake up knowing that I have been dreaming, but not necessarily remembering my dreams. That's one small part of why I am beginning to feel better too, I think.

The Guest also wrote:
Robysue let me first say that I am glad you are now on APAP. Perhaps a portion of your trouble was an inadequate pressure.
My problems with pressure were related to the pressure being too high, not too low. I started out with straight CPAP at 9cm and felt like it was killing me. I'm now using APAP with a prescribed pressure range of 4--8cm, and while I still feel exhausted and sleepy, I am also much better than I was before the pressure reduction. [AHI numbers are roughly the same too.] I really think the extra pressure was causing additional symptoms that were indicating my body was being subjected to unnecessary stress caused by too high of a pressure and that unnecessary physical stress was significantly contributing to my fatigue and daytime sleepiness.

JohnBFisher also wrote:
Robysue, in addition to what The Guest noted, you might want to try some mile exercise late in the afternoon, very earlier in the evening. A longer walk is the type of thing that can help. I agree with what The Guest notes. It sure sounds as if you are struggling with REM rebound. A little bit of exercise will help you feel better. And trust me, I know just how hard it can be to do when you don't feel like it.
Already doing the extra exercise routine. I've already found that getting back into doing an hour or so of yoga every evening is critical both to helping me get to sleep at a semi-reasonable time and also seems to make me feel better the next day.

I'd quit doing the yoga a couple of years back because the AFS exchange students we've been hosting had keep us hopping with various activities and blocking out the time was difficult. Well, we're hosting two young men this year, too, and they keep us hopping with activities. But if I don't get my yoga in, I can't seem to get to sleep or stay asleep. So regardless of how it fits in with everybody's schedule, I get the yoga done maybe 5 out of every 7 days!

And finally, have no fear: I'm determined to make this work. As a mathematician I've got a great deal of appreciation of the statistics concerning what untreated sleep apnea can lead too. So if I can ever get back to simply feeling as good as I did before starting CPAP, I'll be delighted, because at that point I'll have no trouble continuing to use it as a way of preventing the nasty things that apnea can lead too.

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Re: what are the facts? physiology 101

Post by BlackSpinner » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:39 pm

Regarding dreams and REM - one dreams even during non REM state. The dreams and the effects are different. REM dreaming allows you to store memories and processes more of the challenging issues of the day. They tend to be more like night mares while dreams during non REM time tend to be fluffy bunny type dreams.

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Re: what are the facts? physiology 101

Post by robysue » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:20 pm

REM dreaming allows you to store memories and processes more of the challenging issues of the day.
And this is part of how I have always been able to tell when I get into REM and when I don't. I've got a really, really good memory that relies (heavily) on dreaming to consolidate those memories and a mind that needs the REM dreams to sort out the various "challenging issues" of my life. When I don't get into REM, I can't remember things and I start to feel overwhelmed by all the day-today problems in my life.

As an example to clarify what I'm trying to say through my CPAP-fog: This summer---prior to starting CPAP, I didn't have problems coping with day-to-day life and I could remember all the many details of day to day life without any real effort on my part. And I was using those skills big time between my diagnosis sleep study and my titration study and the period before I picked up my equipment: The doctor only was willing to write an Rx for "CPAP machine set at 9cm with mask of patient's choice" and didn't see any reason why I needed a data capable machine or to have copies of my sleep study reports and was pushing a particular DME that I didn't want to use. So I had to do some serious leg work to (a) get a copy of my prescription and sleep study reports, (b) figure out the insurance stuff, and (c) comparison shop for DMEs to find one that would give me an S9 autoset, so I wouldn't stuck with a brick.

And now, six weeks into CPAP those coping with day-to-day life skills and the ablity to remember all the many details of day to day life are extremely difficult for me. I look back on what I had to deal with between my diagnosis and my starting CPAP and I have to be frank: I'm not sure I'd be able to successfully negotiate it all if I had to do it in my current mental and physical state.

So if REM is what allows you to store memories and process the more challenging issues and I'm supposedly getting more REM now that I did before starting CPAP, why am I less able to cope with those day-to-day issues and why do I feel like I can no longer remember anything at all from day to day?

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Re: what are the facts? physiology 101

Post by BlackSpinner » Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:55 pm

So if REM is what allows you to store memories and process the more challenging issues and I'm supposedly getting more REM now that I did before starting CPAP, why am I less able to cope with those day-to-day issues and why do I feel like I can no longer remember anything at all from day to day?
I would hustle after your medical providers wanting to have a proper second sleep study to see what is keeping you from sleeping getting any REM sleep. Obviously something is rousing you and not allowing you to sleep deeply. I would be pounding down doors personally. This is how I felt before cpap, it cleared up within days after I got it.

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Re: what are the facts? physiology 101

Post by larry63 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:47 pm

BlackSpinner wrote:Regarding dreams and REM - one dreams even during non REM state. The dreams and the effects are different. REM dreaming allows you to store memories and processes more of the challenging issues of the day. They tend to be more like night mares while dreams during non REM time tend to be fluffy bunny type dreams.
Huhh????

Citation please
-- Speep study---
AHI = 56.4, RDI = 56.4
breakdown: 5.9 apnea, 0.2 central, 50.6 hyponpea, avg duration 20 sec.
AHI back=77.7, side=0.8 prone = 58.2
O2 desat min 83%, 40.3 min or desat < less then 91%

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Re: what are the facts? physiology 101

Post by larry63 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:11 pm

BlackSpinner wrote:Regarding dreams and REM - one dreams even during non REM state. The dreams and the effects are different. REM dreaming allows you to store memories and processes more of the challenging issues of the day. They tend to be more like night mares while dreams during non REM time tend to be fluffy bunny type dreams.
Hey spinner! First of all, as they at Wikipedia, "Ciitation Please"!

That is a really interesting concept - that one can dream without being in REM.

It would be great if you could point out some articles about this. From what I understand, the idea that one
could be dreaming in a non-rem state (whatever a non-rem state means), is very interesting, because it seems
to be radically opposed to the normal understanding that REM == dreaming.


Now that I have a mask that doesn't leak, it's so nice
to lay in bad and just count my breaths, until I fall into dream-land.

I would like to hear your opinion about how REM dreams differ from NREM dreams (which is a concept that I've never heard before).
Do you have any W^3 links to papers about this?
-- Speep study---
AHI = 56.4, RDI = 56.4
breakdown: 5.9 apnea, 0.2 central, 50.6 hyponpea, avg duration 20 sec.
AHI back=77.7, side=0.8 prone = 58.2
O2 desat min 83%, 40.3 min or desat < less then 91%

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Re: what are the facts? physiology 101

Post by rested gal » Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:49 pm

larry63 wrote:
BlackSpinner wrote:Regarding dreams and REM - one dreams even during non REM state. The dreams and the effects are different. REM dreaming allows you to store memories and processes more of the challenging issues of the day. They tend to be more like night mares while dreams during non REM time tend to be fluffy bunny type dreams.
Hey spinner! First of all, as they at Wikipedia, "Ciitation Please"!

That is a really interesting concept - that one can dream without being in REM.

It would be great if you could point out some articles about this. From what I understand, the idea that one
could be dreaming in a non-rem state (whatever a non-rem state means), is very interesting, because it seems
to be radically opposed to the normal understanding that REM == dreaming.

http://news.healingwell.com/index.php?p=news1&id=522928

"A new study finds that more aggressive, emotionally charged dreams tend to occur in the early, rapid-eye-movement (REM) period of sleep, whereas deeper, non-REM slumber encourages gentler, kinder dreaming."
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Re: what are the facts? physiology 101

Post by larry63 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:26 pm

rested gal wrote:
larry63 wrote:
BlackSpinner wrote:Regarding dreams and REM - one dreams even during non REM state. The dreams and the effects are different. REM dreaming allows you to store memories and processes more of the challenging issues of the day. They tend to be more like night mares while dreams during non REM time tend to be fluffy bunny type dreams.
Hey spinner! First of all, as they at Wikipedia, "Ciitation Please"!

That is a really interesting concept - that one can dream without being in REM.

It would be great if you could point out some articles about this. From what I understand, the idea that one
could be dreaming in a non-rem state (whatever a non-rem state means), is very interesting, because it seems
to be radically opposed to the normal understanding that REM == dreaming.

http://news.healingwell.com/index.php?p=news1&id=522928

"A new study finds that more aggressive, emotionally charged dreams tend to occur in the early, rapid-eye-movement (REM) period of sleep, whereas deeper, non-REM slumber encourages gentler, kinder dreaming."
Awesome, thanks!! Amazing how (I think) most of us have always thought REM=dreaming, and now we find out it's not quite that simple!

Thanks for the link!
-- Speep study---
AHI = 56.4, RDI = 56.4
breakdown: 5.9 apnea, 0.2 central, 50.6 hyponpea, avg duration 20 sec.
AHI back=77.7, side=0.8 prone = 58.2
O2 desat min 83%, 40.3 min or desat < less then 91%

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Re: what are the facts? physiology 101

Post by BlackSpinner » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:32 am

larry63 wrote:
BlackSpinner wrote:Regarding dreams and REM - one dreams even during non REM state. The dreams and the effects are different. REM dreaming allows you to store memories and processes more of the challenging issues of the day. They tend to be more like night mares while dreams during non REM time tend to be fluffy bunny type dreams.
Huhh????

Citation please
I have cited it before but the nicest place to look is a PBS Nova special on dreaming. what are dreams It has links and studies on the website.

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Re: what are the facts? physiology 101

Post by larry63 » Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:29 pm

BlackSpinner wrote:
larry63 wrote:
BlackSpinner wrote:Regarding dreams and REM - one dreams even during non REM state. The dreams and the effects are different. REM dreaming allows you to store memories and processes more of the challenging issues of the day. They tend to be more like night mares while dreams during non REM time tend to be fluffy bunny type dreams.
Huhh????

Citation please
I have cited it before but the nicest place to look is a PBS Nova special on dreaming. what are dreams It has links and studies on the website.
Nice, and thanks!!

When I get the time (yeah right) I'll have to check it out.

What really fascinates me, is that state between sleeping and waking, when you're obviously dreaming (because your thoughts don't make any sense, and your eyes are close but yet have a rich visual field of images). But in a sense you're still awake because you _know_ you are still awake and while in this state, are still aware of your surroundings. Actually, I find that this is a good way to fall a asleep faster: I've sort of trained myself in the course of the nightly counting back-from-100 routine, to recognize the first flashes of dream-like images, and learn that once that happens, to just turn off my thoughts let myself dive in to the dream world and go with the flow, and before you know it I'm fast asleep.

The problem is that the flip side (getting up in the morning) is a nightmare. I find it extremely difficult to get out of that dream state back in to the real world, but I think that it will get easier with practice.

Since a few days ago, when I switched from nasal pillows to a regular nasal mask, I notice that I sort of pass through this phase rather quickly. I think that's probably actually a good thing, because it probably means I'm spending less time in stage one sleep (where I presume this phenomena happens). And it's also good to be able to transition from the dream state to the waking state in 30 minutes, and not three hours. So I got that goin' for me
-- Speep study---
AHI = 56.4, RDI = 56.4
breakdown: 5.9 apnea, 0.2 central, 50.6 hyponpea, avg duration 20 sec.
AHI back=77.7, side=0.8 prone = 58.2
O2 desat min 83%, 40.3 min or desat < less then 91%