Need suggestion for CPAP machine for someone without apnea.

cohncons · Post by **cohncons** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:09 am

Looking for a suggestion for a CPAP machine for someone WITHOUT apnea.

I have been a terrible snorer for over a decade and have tried most fixes, including turbinate surgery. I've had two sleep studies and both have showned little to no apnea. I am not overweight. This basically looks like a palate problem. However, my wife, who is a light sleeper, cannot sleep at all when I snore (which is all the time), so I spend 50 - 75% of my evenings in the guest room. Her birthday is coming up and I'm looking for a solution and want to see if a CPAP machine would help (if you don't think it would, I need to hear that, too). I've always been resistant, as I don't like the idea of sleeping with a mask, connected to a machine with tubes, etc. Probably a familiar story. In any event, as a gift to her and to save our marriage, I'm willing to try anything. However, I see the price range of CPAP machines is all over the map with most in the $700-$1100 range. I figure I might be able to rent one to try it out. What I'm basically looking for is a recommendation for the quietest, least "obtrusive" CPAP machine that would help someone like me who does NOT have apnea.

Any suggestions?

Emilia · Post by **Emilia** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:24 am

I've had two sleep studies and both have showned little to no apnea. I am not overweight. This basically looks like a palate problem. However, my wife, who is a light sleeper, cannot sleep at all when I snore (which is all the time), so I spend 50 - 75% of my evenings in the guest room.

So, you've had sleep studies that show little to no apnea....even a little is something! What about hypopneas? I only had 1 apnea during my study, but I had 77 hypopneas. AHI was 17 thus a dx of OSA. You need to have a doctor's prescription to buy a new machine or a refurbished one from an online cpap provider. You might be able to find one on Criaig's list, but I would careful with that process. You would still need to be fitted and find appropriate mask(s) and you would absolutely need to have an auto cpap machine to do a self titration to determine a good pressure.

You need to provide us with more information from your studies..... do you have copies of them? If not, get them..you are entitled to have them. Once you see the full report and can tell us the results in detail, we can help you better. What did your doctor say about your results? What was the final diagnosis and recommendation?

It seems you are a little bit in denial, IMO, and want to say you don't have apnea when, in fact, you may have other sleep issues that warrant using a cpap machine under doctor's order. Oh, and being normal weight is not a reason to think you can't have apnea... there are many skinny apnea patients around!

ozij · Post by **ozij** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:37 am

Lets distinguish two things:
a.Whether you need a cpap and b.who pays for it.
I am assuming your sleep studies showed you didn't meet the criteria for having insurance pay for a cpap, but what else did they show? Or perhaps, a preliminary question is when did they take place?

Did the studies check and report your oxygen saturation? Do you now what it is?
Did the studies check and report your arousal index -- that is, did they check and report how your snoring affected your sleep?

Have you discussed the issue with a dentist? Sometime Mandibular Advnacement Devices are better for solving "mere" snoring.

If you're convinced the best and only solution is CPAP I would say have you have to get one with full date reporting capcities -snores too, and the software to go with it. Many people would say you need an APAP for self titration (that is finding the pressure you need to keep you from snoring) however, sefl titration can be done just fine on a fixed pressure machine - perhaps even better.

Finding the right pressure for you can be problem (assuming there is a pressure that will keep you from snoring) and finding a fitting mask may be a hassle -- or may work out fine.

We'll be better able to make rational suggestions if you at least tell us what the sleep studies showed, and better yet, what the doctor said about your snoring.

Julie · Post by **Julie** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:39 am

Hi - have you seen an ear, nose & throat MD? Don't let them sell you on major throat surgery, but you might need some nasal work, or at least a definitive diagnosis of why you snore. It might not be OSA, but it's 'something', and without knowing for sure what it is, there is no way to fix it properly and still not end up with work you don't need, or devices (dental or Cpap) that you don't need, but maybe not get what you do.

roster · Post by **roster** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:40 am

Some suggestions before you resort to CPAP:

1. Have you tried positional therapy (PT)? Many people can eliminate snoring by sleeping on their sides or tummy. Due to the anatomy and gravity, backsleeping often creates the worst snoring problem.

2. What about a dentist-fitted mouthpiece to eliminate snoring? These work for some people and are not too expensive. (Don't confuse this with Mandibular Advancement Devices for treating obstructive sleep apnea.)

You are right to aggressively treat snoring because snoring alone is now known to cause serious health problems. Besides, second-hand snoring is causing your wife problems.

BTW, "light sleeper" (your wife) is most commonly a code phrase for untreated sleep apnea. 90+% of people who describe themselves as light sleepers, will be found to have sleep-disordered breathing when undergoing PSGs.

chunkyfrog · Post by **chunkyfrog** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:46 pm

Was the turbinate surgery ELECTIVE for the snoring--or was it medically necessary?
It sounds like someone sold you the surgery and then told you that you were cured of apnea--
Unfortunately, as the body heals, it seeks to return to original condition--UPPP is often temporary.
I bet your apnea is back!
Too bad; all that expense and pain for nada.
Surgeons know everything--and if it fails, it's your fault! --NOT!
Go to your doctor; or get a new one. You may need a new sleep study.
I've been a horrible snorer for maybe 40+ years--nobody knew it was unhealthy. . .
Get well--you sound like a very nice guy.

cohncons · Post by **cohncons** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:49 pm

Wow... lots of great responses.

I don't know the oxygen measurements or anything else being asked. Pretty much the doctors (one was a pulminologist and one was an ENT) said there was nothing significant that would warrant a CPAP. Neither went over the study results in detail and simple said things were fine. It was actually pretty disappointing.

I've have surgery to correct a deviated septum and to ressect my turbinates, which cut down a little on the volume but did not stop the snoring. I've done the breathe right strips, putting Ayr gel in my nostrils, different sleep position pillows, rubberbanding a tennis ball into the back of my shirt to keep me on my side, sleeping with a body pillow, using the Sleep Angel, etc. Nothing has helped.

The ENT seemed to indicate this was a problem with my palate and discussed the possibility of inserting "plasticizers" in the palate to stiffen it or to shave part of it back. I've heard about both surguries and heard that (a) they involve fairly painful recoveries and (b) have low percentages of success. Being a singer (purely amateur in my choir), I'm not keen on palate surgery in general. The ENT also discussed surgeries that would loop some material around the back of my tongue to keep it from falling towards the back of my throat and another surgery that removes part of bone in the lower jaw/throat. Both of these are supposed to stop the tongue from causing snoring. All of the surgeries mentioned are expensive and not covered by insurance.

Interesting point on the "light sleeper" -- maybe my wife needs a sleep study...

I have not discussed this with the dentist, so I'll check that out.

As for my sleep -- I seem to sleep fine through the night. I occasionally wake myself soon after I fall asleep due to my own volume but once I've been asleep a good 10 - 20 minutes, I'm good for the night. My health appears to be excellent, blood pressure is low to normal, etc. Unfortunately, the snoring is more of a strain on my wife and on our relationship than it is on me.

Based on some of the responses, is it true I need a prescription to even try out a CPAP machine to see if it helps? Again, I'm doing this "on my own" to see if I can help my wife to sleep and save our marriage. Without knowing more about the results of the sleep study, does it look like a CPAP is a good fit or not and, if so, what do I need to get one?

cohncons · Post by **cohncons** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:53 pm

PS: I'll contact the ENT to get the results of the latest sleep study...

chunkyfrog · Post by **chunkyfrog** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:58 pm

Run as fast as you can from these butchers. They only want to sell you more surgery!
Shop around for docs who work with less invasive solutions.

Emilia · Post by **Emilia** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:04 pm

You might be interested in this thread, posted yesterday, by Rooster: viewtopic/t56665/MPowRX.html#p531952 Might be an inexpensive solution!

Emilia · Post by **Emilia** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:17 pm

Oh, forgot to say it again: Get a copy of your studies for your own records!! Just because they said is wasn't serious, doesn't mean there weren't some red flags to be aware of in the reports. You are entitled, under the law, to have copies of your medical records. You may need to pay a nominal fee per page, but it is YOUR report and you should have it in your possession.

Janknitz · Post by **Janknitz** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:30 pm

I am not a doctor and don't play one on TV, but it sounds to me like you could have RERA:

Sometimes the throat narrows enough to cause loud snoring and hard breathing, but not enough to produce apneas or hypopneas. Breathing in this situation can be difficult enough to wake the sleeper, an occurrance referred to as a respiratory effort related arousal (RERA).

from http://www.mayoclinic.org/sleep-apnea/s ... thing.html

CPAP may be used successfully to treat RERA's.

You should get a full copy of your previous studies (the full report, not a one page summary) and find a sleep doctor who treats RERA's (You may have to ask before making appointments). Hopefully NOT an ENT surgeon who will want to do more "procedures" on you as a first line of treatment.

roster · Post by **roster** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:20 pm

cohncons wrote: The ENT seemed to indicate this was a problem with my palate and discussed the possibility of inserting "plasticizers" in the palate to stiffen it or to shave part of it back. .... The ENT also discussed surgeries that would loop some material around the back of my tongue to keep it from falling towards the back of my throat and another surgery that removes part of bone in the lower jaw/throat. ....

There is something rotten in Denmark. Those surgeries your docs mention are even extreme measures for obstructive sleep apnea much less snoring alone.

You have a legal right to a copy of your sleep study. How about getting a copy and letting us know what the findings were?

(Gotta go. Police at my door. Something about a hate crime against the Danish.)

M.D.Hosehead · Post by **M.D.Hosehead** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:41 pm

roster wrote:

There is something rotten in Denmark. Those surgeries your docs mention are even extreme measures for obstructive sleep apnea much less snoring alone.

Sounds that way to me, too. Probably doctors who have a superficial understanding of SA.

And a good point about his partner's light sleeping.

That said, there's nothing to prevent a doctor from prescribing CPAP for snoring. No insurance coverage for that, probably, but it's the most harmless approach ("first, do no harm.")

(Gotta go. Police at my door. Something about a hate crime against the Danish.)

Too obscure for me.

SleepingUgly · Post by **SleepingUgly** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:37 pm

I agree with the other posts that you need a copy of your sleep study. You may also need a face-to-face meeting to ask questions like whether they looked at RERAs (Respiratory Effort Related Arousals) or flow limitations that may be suggestive of Upper Airway Resistance Syndrome, even if you don't meet full criteria for Obstructive Sleep Apnea. I'd also ask them which criteria they used to score hypopneas: AASM Recommended or AASM Alternative (If the former, it's possible you meet criteria by the latter, which is more lenient).
That is great that you are willing to do whatever you have to for your wife's sleep. However, unless you need a CPAP, I don't see that as a great option. I'm not sure surgery is a great option either, especially some of the more invasive surgeries.
It sounds like you're saying that whether you sleep together will make or break your marriage. Snoring doesn't ruin a marriage, nor does fixing snoring save a marriage. You can go under the knife, or hook yourself up to CPAP, but I would bet my bottom dollar that if your marriage is in such bad straights that you're thinking it needs "saving", none of these measures will in fact save it. Therefore, my recommendation is couples therapy, which has a far better chance of saving your marriage (sleeping together or not) than does CPAP or surgery.

Need suggestion for CPAP machine for someone without apnea.

Need suggestion for CPAP machine for someone without apnea.

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Re: Need suggestion for CPAP machine for someone without apnea.

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