Call for Update: S9 Data Skew Issue

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
-SWS
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Re: Call for Update: S9 Data Skew Issue

Post by -SWS » Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:25 am

DreamDiver wrote:
-SWS wrote:DD, can you find any correlation between your machine's data skew and number of mask-fit sessions?

Sorry to hear about your frustrating experience with sleep studies.
I could probably take the time to sit down and measure, but I think others may have already done that. I'm still putting some distance between me and the problem.
Thanks for the offer, DreamDiver! I don't think it's advantageous to spend more time on that.

And thanks for this explanation as well:
DreamDiver wrote:There are four main files types in question: *BRP.edf, *PLD.edf, *EVE.edf, and *SAD.edf. The .crc files are 'sanity' check files, as far as I can tell, to make sure the numbers have not been tampered with upon uploading to ResScan.

*BRP.edf includes two very high resolution measurements at 25 Hz: Flow and Mask Pressure. This data is linear. These two measurements are either combined using an algorithm to produce what we see in ResScan, or one of them is simply dropped. I suspsect the former.

*PLD.edf includes eleven less-high resolution (1 Hz) data, which are linear. These include another different Mask Pressure measurement, Therapy pressure, Exp Pressure, Leak, RR, Vt, MV, Snore Index, FFL Index and two unlabeled indices or lines that seem to have something to do with lining up the *EVE.edf data (the next one.)

*EVE.edf includes all event data (point or 'marker' data on a timeline), including central, obstructive and unknown apneas and hypopneas. The shorter this file, the better we supposedly sleep.

*SAD.edf is for high-resolution oxygen and pulse data. ResMed suggests the data being measured is 1Hz data, even though the sensor they use is capable of 25(27?)Hz collection, including plethysmography, so I don't know what to believe on that one because I haven't seen any oximetry data in a *SAD.edf file yet.

Some of the data being measured is either not stored or not displayed by ResScan, even though the S9 measures it. Some of the data shown by ResScan graphs is created during the upload process, such as the AHI graph.

The three most important files for this are the *BRP.edf, *PLD.edf and *EVE.edf files. They have to be written to one at a time because the S9 has only one processor and can handle only one task at a time. Similarly, the data cannot be all read at identically the same time, but rather, darned close. It looks to me like the flow data takes precedence, since it writes most often. The 1Hz linear data is written next. The event (point data) data writes independently of either flow or linear data, only when events are noted by the software in the S9. Regardless of when the data is written, at least one variable is being held as a sort of changing global variable from mask-session to mask-session that affects the skew of the next data session. The currently writing session seems to either grab some variables from the their analogous files from the last mask session, or from a variable storage file that is used to alter the original write time of the current session. However it happens, those variables change from session to session, independently for each file type when they should be identical. Session begin-time ends up being different for each file in a mask session, with that difference in time growing in an asymptotic curve. The outcome is ever-increasing skew.

Data seen in the EDF browser are usually identical to what is seen in the data on ResScan, down to the second, so an independent audit of the data proves that ResScan is not introducing the problem. It already exists in the data as written by the S9 before it gets to ResScan. The SD cards provided by ResMed are their approved cards, so they cannot be the problem. Hence, the data skew must be either firmware- or hardware-based.
I'll continue keeping an eye on mine to see how the skew progresses with firmware version SX474-0602.

DreamOn
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Re: Call for Update: S9 Data Skew Issue

Post by DreamOn » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:20 am

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Last edited by DreamOn on Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Rebecca R
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Re: Call for Update: S9 Data Skew Issue

Post by Rebecca R » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:27 am

Nord wrote:
Rebecca R wrote:I'm an S9 newbie! How do you check which version of the firmware you have?
Hi Rebecca...

It is given on the LCD screen. Check your S9 "Advanced Menu" (push Info and Setup buttons together) and go to last readout for SW (SoftWare).

Your S9 Clinical Manual.

Nord

Thanks--I've got SX 474-0602

DreamOn
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Re: Call for Update: S9 Data Skew Issue

Post by DreamOn » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:37 am

Rebecca R wrote:Thanks--I've got SX 474-0602
Hi, Rebecca! I see you're also a newcomer to the "S9 Club". Pretty nice machine, isn't it?

-SWS
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Re: Call for Update: S9 Data Skew Issue

Post by -SWS » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:43 am

DreamOn wrote: There is still no discernible skew in the events themselves...

So, from the experience of those who have used the S9 longer term, should I be showing obvious skewing of the event markers vs. flow graph by now? The start and stop times differ between flow and the other details (flow limitation, pressure & minute ventilation), but the event markers seem to line up with flow, yes??? (10-second view in lower pane):

Image
Your 15s CA event marker above seems slightly LEFT shifted. The original data skew problem supposedly caused lag or right-shifting in those event markers. I also have a couple slightly left-shifted event markers in last night's data with my SX 474-0602 firmware...

Now I am wondering if firmware update SX 474-0602 simply tried to adjust those event markers with respect to the detailed flow graph.

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Re: Call for Update: S9 Data Skew Issue

Post by DreamOn » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:57 am

-SWS wrote:
DreamOn wrote: There is still no discernible skew in the events themselves...

So, from the experience of those who have used the S9 longer term, should I be showing obvious skewing of the event markers vs. flow graph by now? The start and stop times differ between flow and the other details (flow limitation, pressure & minute ventilation), but the event markers seem to line up with flow, yes??? (10-second view in lower pane):

Image
Your 15s CA event marker above seems slightly LEFT shifted. The original data skew problem supposedly caused lag or right-shifting in those event markers.
Yes, I noticed the left-shifting in the 10-second view too! The interesting thing is that the events are left-shifted by the same amount on the very first day I used the S9 Autoset too, so it doesn't appear to be cumulative shifting.
Last edited by DreamOn on Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rebecca R
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Re: Call for Update: S9 Data Skew Issue

Post by Rebecca R » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:01 am

DreamOn wrote:
Rebecca R wrote:Thanks--I've got SX 474-0602
Hi, Rebecca! I see you're also a newcomer to the "S9 Club". Pretty nice machine, isn't it?

Thanks DreamOn. Pretty nice indeed.


I only had time to look at one event, but it seems okay to me--or is it over slightly? I have at least 17 mask events so far. I haven't turned the machine off or done anything special before or after removing the card.

Image
Last edited by Rebecca R on Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

-SWS
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Re: Call for Update: S9 Data Skew Issue

Post by -SWS » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:04 am

DreamOn wrote:The interesting thing is that the events are left-shifted by the same amount on the very first day I used the S9 Autoset too, so it doesn't appear to be cumulative shifting
Thanks, DreamOn. Are ALL your event markers left-shifted? Or have only a subset of event markers been left-shifting from day-one?

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Re: Call for Update: S9 Data Skew Issue

Post by DreamOn » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:06 am

Rebecca, your event marker vs. flow graph looks spot-on to me, but I'm a newcomer to this so I may not know what I'm talking about.

DreamOn
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Re: Call for Update: S9 Data Skew Issue

Post by DreamOn » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:55 am

-SWS wrote:
DreamOn wrote:The interesting thing is that the events are left-shifted by the same amount on the very first day I used the S9 Autoset too, so it doesn't appear to be cumulative shifting
Thanks, DreamOn. Are ALL your event markers left-shifted? Or have only a subset of event markers been left-shifting from day-one?
That question is a little difficult for me to answer because I'm not always sure where the definition of an "event" actually ends on the flow chart in 10-second view. It sometimes gets a little "muddy" for me, depending on how flow proceeds after the event.
Last edited by DreamOn on Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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GertJan
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Re: Call for Update: S9 Data Skew Issue

Post by GertJan » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:28 pm

I've got SX 474-0601.

I had two (non-consecutive) nights with skew, I am using my S9 for 2 months now
Never tried to "Fix" it, it just didn't happen the next days.

Gert-Jan

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DreamOn
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Re: Call for Update: S9 Data Skew Issue

Post by DreamOn » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:42 pm

GertJan wrote:I've got SX 474-0601.

I had two (non-consecutive) nights with skew, I am using my S9 for 2 months now
Never tried to "Fix" it, it just didn't happen the next days.

Gert-Jan
Did your two nights with skew show up in 5-minute view, or only in the finer-detailed views, such as 10-second?
Last edited by DreamOn on Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

-SWS
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Re: Call for Update: S9 Data Skew Issue

Post by -SWS » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:51 pm

GertJan wrote:I've got SX 474-0601.

I had two (non-consecutive) nights with skew, I am using my S9 for 2 months now
Never tried to "Fix" it, it just didn't happen the next days.

Gert-Jan
kf10 wrote:I have notice the skew issue in my 29th days of usage. It last 2-3 days and back to normal. I have used the S9 for 3 months, never format my SD card.
The above two anecdotes are different skew behavior than previously discussed. The previously discussed data skew behavior entailed ever-growing or accumulative skew that needed to be reset by formatting the SD card.

By contrast, the above two anecdotes seem to reflect data skew behavior that is short-lived and resets without user intervention. However, so far those reported data-skew behaviors are the exception rather than the rule. Thanks, kf10 and GertJan for your input!

DreamOn, thanks for the above input as well! So far I don't think we have reports of severe/moderate event-marker skewing with the SX 474-0602 firmware... Then again we haven't collected very many anecdotes about that firmware version either.

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Re: Call for Update: S9 Data Skew Issue

Post by DreamOn » Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:38 pm

-SWS wrote:DreamOn, thanks for the above input as well! So far I don't think we have reports of severe/moderate event-marker skewing with the SX 474-0602 firmware... Then again we haven't collected very many anecdotes about that firmware version either.
My start/end times have been slightly off since the beginning. Maybe that's considered "normal"? I'm not sure what's going on with that slight left-shifting of event marker vs. flow graph in 10-second view.

I usually view the detailed data in 5- or 10-minute views anyway, where I'm not noticing any event-marker skew. But perhaps, over time, this will become more noticeable? It will be interesting to see what happens.

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ww
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Re: Call for Update: S9 Data Skew Issue

Post by ww » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:00 pm

I have SX 474-0602 with 65 days operation there is no noticeable skew from flow to obstructive or central events! The card is as originally installed over two months ago. Maybe the firmware revision fixed the problem and I have yet to see the skew.

As far as people defending the S9, I can certainly see why as it is a wonderful machine. I am an engineer and had many issues with the previous Respironics Series M Auto and that machine missed recording many days of data due to inherent firmware problems. I have not seen the first problem with the S9 and consider Bill Bolton, SWS, and many others as extremely reliable posters here!

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