Long term effects of its use

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
User avatar
roster
Posts: 8159
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:02 pm
Location: Chapel Hill, NC

Re: Long term effects of its use

Post by roster » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:35 pm

So, you did not answer many of my questions. But this may take some time, so I will be patient.

Be aware that you are laboring under some (probably many) misconceptions; all of us were when we first came here. We would like to keep you away from wild goose chases that waste your time, energy and money.

Example:
If it is obstructed and it can be simply fixed by allergy medicine then a CPAP will be counterproductive as it increases congestion.
The typical obstructive apnea blockage is the back of the tongue meeting the soft palate. This is highly unlikely to be due to allergies. Now that is not to say allergies should not be addressed. They do have a negative impact on our breathing processes.

A properly set up CPAP process should not increase congestion. In fact, the filtered, humidified air often reduces congestion. To repeat, things must be set up properly.
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

Beyond talking points

Re: Long term effects of its use

Post by Beyond talking points » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:29 pm

I agree, this is why I am doing research, and why I appreciate so much the help that you are all providing. On my initial research I found the marketing material, persons repeating marketing material, good example of persons that the machine changed their lives for the best, several persons that hate the machine, dentists saying that their solution is better and lots of comments that let to my many misconceptions. This is why I appreciate all this good the guidance that will let me go beyond the talking points and into what is best for my specific situation.

My conclusion right now is that the doctor intent was the right one as there is no doubt that the CPAP machine will help. Where the doctor failed is to look at all the possible factors and options and could have incorrectly assumed that I have the start of a permanent condition and it could be a temporary condition due to stress, overweight (I stop exercising), change in sleeping position, dry air in the house(winter), or a couple of others. She may have given me a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

But as you have all helped me realized, there are still too many unknowns to make conclusions. I will keep researching, and do keep sending ideas.

Let me replay your sleep knowledge with some inside corporate knowledge from somebody that has his career depends in the ability to separate spin from truth:
You can usually tell an honest post from somebody’s personal point of view when they talk about the CPAP in first tense. For example: My life has improved by…… This forum is full of honest persons, others are not.
You can usually assume that it is a corporate marketing person when they post in third tense. The machine helps persons ….. the machine has been proven to …. I have worked with many corporate marketing teams and this is a typical (unethical) way of influencing the market. They are not legally required but they should disclose that they work for the industry.
Lots of peer reviewed articles as disguised marketing material. Best way to tell is that most of them spend most of their time proving their hypothesis and little but no time trying to disprove them. For example, most car and computer magazines reporters are simply repeating the corporate talking points.

Again, thank you for your help

User avatar
carbonman
Posts: 2523
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:57 am

Re: Long term effects of its use

Post by carbonman » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:01 pm

In the same way you never started smoking,
you will live long and prosper, if that is your path.
In the same way you have not started cpap,
you will experience the living death of OSA.

The 3yr. old on your lap will witness the slow degradation
of her most loved one, but will accept it as life,
not knowing any better. It is always easier to see the light
when it shines on others, the gift.

Until you know the pain and the fatigue,
the loss of cognitive ability,
the loss of memory,
feel your life slipping away from you....

it will be just a marketing trick.

Your questions stimulate my mind.
They remind me to look back and feel the pain,
remember the fatigue.
I don't want to ever forget the day I walked up the stairs
and just ever so slightly, felt the release.
The day that I believed.

Thank you!
"If your therapy is improving your health but you're not doing anything
to see or feel those changes, you'll never know what you're capable of."
I said that.

User avatar
SleepingUgly
Posts: 4690
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:32 pm

Re: Long term effects of its use

Post by SleepingUgly » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:46 pm

I admire your lack of defensiveness in your responses.

Personally I don't think you need to be concerned with marketing and bias on the part of manufacturers or researchers (you can consider bias when you are deciding which machine to get).

If I may ask, why did you have the sleep study done in the first place? If it was due to sleepiness, that would easily be explained by your chronic sleep deprivation. Were there other issues? Do you snore? Are you having other, possibly related, health issues?

I'm not sure if I've read anything to suggest that AHI is impacted by sleep deprivation, but I've heard doctors refer to various things that can cause night-to-night variability, including how tired the person is. It is possible that your weight is a factor.

The first thing you have to do is to get a copy of your sleep study.
Never put your fate entirely in the hands of someone who cares less about it than you do. --Sleeping Ugly

User avatar
SleepingUgly
Posts: 4690
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:32 pm

Re: Long term effects of its use

Post by SleepingUgly » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:55 pm

He doesn't know anything about his condition yet, and he has time to learn about it and weigh his options before he loses his mind and his life. His approach seems very rational to me. Only a nut like me would initiate CPAP treatment without an understanding of what it is they have.
carbonman wrote:In the same way you never started smoking,
you will live long and prosper, if that is your path.
In the same way you have not started cpap,
you will experience the living death of OSA.

The 3yr. old on your lap will witness the slow degradation
of her most loved one, but will accept it as life,
not knowing any better. It is always easier to see the light
when it shines on others, the gift.

Until you know the pain and the fatigue,
the loss of cognitive ability,
the loss of memory,
feel your life slipping away from you....

it will be just a marketing trick.

Your questions stimulate my mind.
They remind me to look back and feel the pain,
remember the fatigue.
I don't want to ever forget the day I walked up the stairs
and just ever so slightly, felt the release.
The day that I believed.

Thank you!
Never put your fate entirely in the hands of someone who cares less about it than you do. --Sleeping Ugly

User avatar
billbolton
Posts: 2264
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:46 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Long term effects of its use

Post by billbolton » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:24 pm

Truth behind talking points wrote:I am fairly young, and the idea of being slave to a machine for the next 60 years of my life is a scary one.
So don't use a CPAP machine... and you probably wont have 60 years more of life left to worry about it. To me that is much more scary than using a CPAP machine.
  • 1. There is a lot of research on CPAP available on the web if you care to spend a bit of time looking for it.

    2. Basically, if you stop using CPAP treatment you will pretty much immediately return to whatever state you were in before you started.
Its your choice,

Cheers,

Bill

_________________
MachineMask
Additional Comments: Airmini, Medistrom Pilot 24, CMS 60C Pulse Oximeter, ResScan 6

User avatar
Muse-Inc
Posts: 4382
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:44 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Long term effects of its use

Post by Muse-Inc » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:45 pm

If I were you, I would do this:
  • Assuming $ is not an issue, have another sleep study when I was NOT experiencing allergy congestion.
  • Make sure they test me sleeping on my back & side; you might not have apnea side sleeping.
  • Made sure it's a split study, so they hook you up with a mask & CPAP device & titrate to the ideal pressure and increase beyond that to see if central apneas emerge (this latter is very important & will be very helpful if you decide to get an APAP machine).
  • If the above is not feasible, buy a recording oximeter and start using it religiously to gather data and determine if saturated oxygen levels (SpO2) during sleep was dropping into the 'bad' percentages and heart rate showing events (same gadget records both).
  • Check my complete blood chemistry lab and see if my red blood cell count, my RDW & hemocrit are within normal range; an untreated or poorly treated (yes, lots of us do not have great therapy for a number of reasons that we provide peer-to-peer coaching about) apneics' body adapts to nightly oxygen deprivations by increasing these as adaptation as if we were living at high altitude where oxygen percentage is lower
Do you get up to pee a lot at night? I was, 8-10 times/night that stopped on night 1 of CPAP therapy. This is called nocturia and occurs to reduce the hypertension that occurs with events...the brain panics & drastically increases adrenalin to wake you up to your wide-awake (or almost awake) breathing pattern. If they occur often enough, 24-hr a day hypertension results.

Do you have morning headaches that do not go away with pain meds? They occur when the body's carbon dioxide levels are deranged.

Does diabetes run in your family? If so, be aware that somewhere between 65-80% of untreated apneics will become diabetic within 5 yrs of untreated apnea.

Like Den said, untreated apnea causes wt gain. I date the start of mine to a yr or so before I gained 50#s with no change in eating/activity, just a lot more stress (and even that might have been due to the apnea).

I had the bad habit of short sleeping most of my adult life as I did not realize how very important good restful sleep was...I regret this habit.

Is your sleep becoming increasingly light? Mine was and to some extent I still am very sensitive to outside noise, light, movement. Mine got lighter and lighter for a long time and then I started sleeping the sleep of the dead where I was hard to rouse/wakeup and then groggy for hours in the morning (or whenever I woke up) -- apnea, oxygen deprivation is slow suffocation every night. I easily slept 14-18 hrs when I got the chance and typically woke up more tired than when I went to sleep so I typically just got up tired after 7-8 hrs of 'sleep' as more didn't make me feel less exhausted.

Sleep disordered breathing is a horrible collection of conditions that prevent us from getting restful sleep at night. If your doc suspects it, do every test possible to ensure you do or do not have any of them -- they are deadly. And, when they aren't deadly, they like a stroke can leave you permanently dysfunctional and incapable of taking care of yourself...not good.

You are too young to invite the damages this creates untreated.

Best of luck resolving this one way or the other!
Last edited by Muse-Inc on Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
ResMed S9 range 9.8-17, RespCare Hybrid FFM
Never, never, never, never say never.

User avatar
Gerald
Posts: 1352
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:32 pm
Location: Central Louisiana

Re: Long term effects of its use

Post by Gerald » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:46 pm

Beyond......

Sleep Apnea causes suffocation.....not enough O2 levels in your blood.

To help determine whether you need CPAP or not, you might consider purchasing an inexpensive Oximeter with software that'll allow you to monitor your O2 levels while asleep. Use the Oximeter for a couple of weeks....generate a report every day (showing what happened to your O2 levels the night before). Once you have a stack of 15 or 20 reports, the answer will be apparent....and you'll have no trouble adapting to CPAP therapy if you see that your O2 levels are below where they should be. I can recommend the SPO-7500 as a good tool to get this job done. I bought mine from turnermedical.com and I've never been sorry. The software that comes with the Oximeter is quite good.

Once you run your own experiments on O2 levels....in your own bed.....under normal conditions, you'll be comfortable with the decisions that are needed.

Beyond talking points

Re: Long term effects of its use

Post by Beyond talking points » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:03 pm

Carbonman,
Nice poetry, you should publish. Let me add under the same theme that regarding my quest for knowledge, only a coward gets motivated by fear. A courageous man acts decisively based on the available information. Don’t try to influence me with fear as it will not work. All I am asking is for information on where I can find research. Please be brave with me and guide me to the best research.

Beyond talking points

Re: Long term effects of its use

Post by Beyond talking points » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:04 pm

SleepingUgly,
I got the sleep study because there was a slight decrease in oxygen levels during my surgery. The anesthesiologist said that it was nothing that I should be worried about but that I should mention it to my doctor on my next physical. My doctor ordered the test only to cover all the bases.
Thank you for your help, advice, encouragement and concern.

Beyond talking points

Re: Long term effects of its use

Post by Beyond talking points » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:04 pm

Bill,
Thank you, this is one of my key questions. If I stop will I return to where I am today, will it be worse, or will it be comparable to where I would be if I never used it? I have found plenty of forum users that could not sleep because their machine broke or they failed to bring it on a trip. I was also able to find one research that shows that after extended use the patient still had apnea. The research did not compare the level of apnea before and after. I am sure that the information was available yet they did not publish it. I always find it interesting when a researcher (scientist) uses qualitative data when quantitative data is available to prove their conclusions. It is like having a rock solid alibi for a crime and deciding not use it on court. I am still looking into it, and I have faith that I will find it before the decision turns into a life or death one; even if I have to contact the researcher myself. There is still plenty of time before the point of no return.
My disappointment is that it should be fairly simple to study 50 persons that were diagnose and use the machine and asked to stop for a short time and compare them to 50 persons that were diagnose refused to use the machine. I am also sure that there are persons out there that use the machine daily, and some that use it on some days. By simply analyzing the data the answers will come out. I have done significantly more difficult and expensive research on fairly less significant issues! If there is a published researched I will find it. If there is not……. there are ways to get it done.
As I mentioned before, I did not meet the minimum criteria for the machine, but the doctor said that she can still provide one. I got time to do the research.

Beyond talking points

Re: Long term effects of its use

Post by Beyond talking points » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:06 pm

Muse,
Great advice!!!! I will follow it , it makes perfect sence.

With regards to your questions. I do not get up to pee at night. I do not have morning headaches, I used to get one regularly at 3:00pm but it was because of food allergies. They stopped five years ago. No diabetes in my family. My weight variations are directly proportional to my discipline at the gim. My sleep is actually getting deeper. I went from a heavy sleeper to an extremely light sleeper when my girl was borned. It feels like I am learning to sleep again.
Again great advice, it is already on my things to request during my next doctor visit.

User avatar
Muse-Inc
Posts: 4382
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:44 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Long term effects of its use

Post by Muse-Inc » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:09 pm

CPAP therapy does NOT cure the condition! All it does is pressurize the airways so they do not narrow or collapse during sleep. There is no cure unless it is SOLELY caused by obesity, then wt loss will make the apnea disappear.
ResMed S9 range 9.8-17, RespCare Hybrid FFM
Never, never, never, never say never.

Beyond talking points

Re: Long term effects of its use

Post by Beyond talking points » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:09 pm

Gerald,
Cute picture.
I will order the Oximeter tonight. Thank you for the guidance.

User avatar
billbolton
Posts: 2264
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:46 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Long term effects of its use

Post by billbolton » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:16 pm

Beyond talking points wrote:I have done significantly more difficult and expensive research on fairly less significant issues!
I should have guessed you were just trolling from your user name etc.

Mea culpa

_________________
MachineMask
Additional Comments: Airmini, Medistrom Pilot 24, CMS 60C Pulse Oximeter, ResScan 6