Zeo Personal Sleep Coach?

.

I have tried Zeo for about a week, and I plan to return it tomorrow. It can't descriminated between wakefulness and light sleep. The support guy's efforts to minimize this problem -- that it measures sleep well but doesn't always discriminate sleep from wakefulness -- is unconvincing. Some of the data from my sleep records make a lot of sense, and some make none. The problem, of course, is that you can't validate which is accurate and which isn't.

There are no controlled studies published in any scientific journals on the efficacy of Zeo. The 'scientific studies' that Zeo points to may or may not have been well done, but they haven't been subject to formal peer review, which is the only way to determine the scientific validity of any study. Instead, Zeo points to abstracts and meeting posters, which isn't sufficient.

Too bad. I really like the machine, and it probably has great potential. It's not ready for prime time. Not at any price.

upstartguy wrote:I have tried Zeo for about a week, and I plan to return it tomorrow. It can't descriminated between wakefulness and light sleep... It's not ready for prime time. Not at any price.

I hope your going to try a second unit to make sure yours isn't defective? It sounds like its not working?
I've used mine almost every day since September and haven't had any problems with it.
I might not work for some people, for example it does not work on my father who has Parkinson's.
I do agree it needs more formal testing however. I think the general concept is very promising.
I'd like to see a medial device equivalent to the Zeo with proven accuracy that scores arousals and micro-arousals as well.

Here is how I slept last night for those of you who have not seen the reports that it produces.

Used Zeo Sleep Coach for the first night last night. The headband was comfortable and i had no problem keeping it on all night. I wore it with my Quatro FF mask. For some reason, I used CPAP more last night than normal - maybe i was well motivated to try to collect as much data as possible. Interestingly, the Zeo shows that I never got any deep or REM sleep while on CPAP - it was only after I took off the CPAP that I had deep or REM sleep. i am looking forward to correlating the data between my breating and my sleep stages. Only having used it one day, I do like the on-line sleep jurnal setup with the Zeo.

One-day sale, $199 includes S&H : http://www.amazon.com/gp/goldbox/ref=pe ... pe_00_head

BlueHairBob wrote:Used Zeo Sleep Coach for the first night last night. The headband was comfortable and i had no problem keeping it on all night. I wore it with my Quatro FF mask. For some reason, I used CPAP more last night than normal - maybe i was well motivated to try to collect as much data as possible. Interestingly, the Zeo shows that I never got any deep or REM sleep while on CPAP - it was only after I took off the CPAP that I had deep or REM sleep. i am looking forward to correlating the data between my breating and my sleep stages. Only having used it one day, I do like the on-line sleep jurnal setup with the Zeo.

my sleep data always looks better when i do not use my cpap too!!!!! i have UARS, not apnea though. haven't figured this one out yet. man, i wish i could get my data to look like the previous poster. bluehair, let me know how it goes after you use the zeo for a few days. i've had mine for 7 months. seems to be quite accurate to me.

sleepsurfer wrote:

BlueHairBob wrote:Used Zeo Sleep Coach for the first night last night. The headband was comfortable and i had no problem keeping it on all night. I wore it with my Quatro FF mask. For some reason, I used CPAP more last night than normal - maybe i was well motivated to try to collect as much data as possible. Interestingly, the Zeo shows that I never got any deep or REM sleep while on CPAP - it was only after I took off the CPAP that I had deep or REM sleep. i am looking forward to correlating the data between my breating and my sleep stages. Only having used it one day, I do like the on-line sleep jurnal setup with the Zeo.

my sleep data always looks better when i do not use my cpap too!!!!! i have UARS, not apnea though. haven't figured this one out yet. man, i wish i could get my data to look like the previous poster. bluehair, let me know how it goes after you use the zeo for a few days. i've had mine for 7 months. seems to be quite accurate to me.

This ZEO looks interesting & it caught my eye recently. The 1st questions that come to my mind are ...

- How long is someone likely to remain interested in using it once the novelty wears off (collecting data off cpaps is a similar practice & after 5 years I still do that )
- Does knowing the data from your sleep really change the way you prepare for sleep ? (again once the novelty wears off)


I am sure there could be many different responses but having been through the data gathering on cpaps, data gathering from heartrate & ride monitors & exercise plans, the above questions come to mind.

Cheers

DSM

dsm wrote:
This ZEO looks interesting & it caught my eye recently. The 1st questions that come to my mind are ...

- How long is someone likely to remain interested in using it once the novelty wears off (collecting data off cpaps is a similar practice & after 5 years I still do that )
- Does knowing the data from your sleep really change the way you prepare for sleep ? (again once the novelty wears off)


I am sure there could be many different responses but having been through the data gathering on cpaps, data gathering from heartrate & ride monitors & exercise plans, the above questions come to mind.

Cheers

DSM

Doug, Is this like, "I have been recording my misery long enough. Now I am ready for a resolution."? I hear you.

rooster wrote:

dsm wrote:
This ZEO looks interesting & it caught my eye recently. The 1st questions that come to my mind are ...

- How long is someone likely to remain interested in using it once the novelty wears off (collecting data off cpaps is a similar practice & after 5 years I still do that )
- Does knowing the data from your sleep really change the way you prepare for sleep ? (again once the novelty wears off)


I am sure there could be many different responses but having been through the data gathering on cpaps, data gathering from heartrate & ride monitors & exercise plans, the above questions come to mind.

Cheers

DSM

Doug, Is this like, "I have been recording my misery long enough. Now I am ready for a resolution."? I hear you.

LOL !

DSM

PS I forgot to include all that SpO2 data I gathered - the heartrate monitor I mentioned in the 1st post was the one on my bike (Polar 725X )

I think Zeo has done an exceptional marketing job of this product. I applaud their effort in bringing awareness to the importance of sleep and proper sleep architecture.

However I am a bit skeptical. We are running Phillips Respironics Alice 5, grass electrode (gold) with Ten20 eeg conductive gel (Using the 10-20 System of Electrode Placement) we still cannot rely on the (Alice 5) algorithm to (accurately) score sleep staging. We manually do this epoch by epoch.

I cannot imagine how they can make this claim, to many variables to many to mention actually. (this is a novelty product) which is o.k.. As long as the buyers understand this.

With that said what I am interested about Derek, is the wireless capability, imagine this (wireless) technology brought into a clinical setting (Sleep Lab). Half of our battle is keeping our electrodes in place, (every time a patient rolls over my first concern is a wire getting tangled and pulled off) if we could do this without a wire it would be less interruption to the patient. (another application would be the Phillips PDX, part of the problem of doing home studies with ECG/EEG is a wire being pulled and no one there to re/apply which would require a whole new study).

Would love to demo the Zeo in the Lab and compare against our techs... Maybe that would help with my skepticism.

Agape

Agape, you have some good analysis here. Granted there might be some limitations to the product but as you point out the wireless aspect is innovative. I have always wondered about my sleep tests and how accurate could they have been in measure sleep depth and duration when I had electrodes stuck on me with a mound of wire, diaphram straps to squeeze my stomach,a test kit hanging off me, sleeping in a strange place and unable to move to a comfortable sleep position. Not to mention a strange wire hanging under my nose on the first test. Also knowing that the entire time a group of strangers are watching me and my every move and knowing I am being videotaped.CPAP is a breeze compared to most of the other stuff you are hooked up to in a sleep test. For me, I was shocked that I have any REM sleep at all in the sleep lab under these conditions and I am not convinced that most of the data collected in a sleep test is valid because of the extreme lack of comfort during the entire process.
I ordered one last night and we'll see how it goes. Maybe the sleep lab industry could spent a little of that mountain of cash and buy and couple of these to test.

sleepsurfer wrote:my sleep data always looks better when i do not use my cpap too!!!!! i have UARS, not apnea though. haven't figured this one out yet.

Some people with UARS have over active nervous systems due to all the sympathetic nervous system activity. Maybe when you use CPAP it actually keep you more awake due to the discomfort and an already activated system?

dsm wrote:- How long is someone likely to remain interested in using it once the novelty wears off

I have used mine almost every night since I got it in September. I might be a bit obsessive though

dsm wrote:Does knowing the data from your sleep really change the way you prepare for sleep ?

I would say yes. Basically you start to learn what affects your sleep and try to avoid doing that. In essence is hard to change what your not measuring.

Over all I like my Zeo but I do wish there was a medical grade version.

Agape=Love wrote:However I am a bit skeptical. We are running Phillips Respironics Alice 5, grass electrode (gold) with Ten20 eeg conductive gel (Using the 10-20 System of Electrode Placement) we still cannot rely on the (Alice 5) algorithm to (accurately) score sleep staging. We manually do this epoch by epoch.

This is the biggest challenge with this product. There is a technology developed by Philp Low that does better automated scoring and needs only one electrode. I would like to see a Zeo using that algorithm.

Agape=Love wrote:I cannot imagine how they can make this claim, to many variables to many to mention actually. (this is a novelty product) which is o.k.. As long as the buyers understand this.

The way I look at it is that its better than nothing at all. There really are no other at home sleep staging options (that are affordable) Even if its only 80% accurate then it does provide some value.

Agape=Love wrote:Would love to demo the Zeo in the Lab and compare against our techs... Maybe that would help with my skepticism.

I don't understand why sleep labs aren't doing this. To me having the ability to monitor people sleep over a long period of time should be the holy grail for sleep medicine. I brought up the Zeo to my sleep lab and they didn't even want to look at the charts from it...

el_zorro wrote: I am not convinced that most of the data collected in a sleep test is valid because of the extreme lack of comfort during the entire process.

Amen.

Was thinking today how the newest Respironics & Resmed machines are now geared up to do some serious analytical work on users to the extent that a good RT could read the new data they now provide & be able to recognize the need for either 1) a more sophisticated machine or b) further lab evaluation. The older machines didn't have that capability. What has lifted the game is the added features that allow for determining closed/open airway apneas & that in turn allows for assessing types of apnea the user may be experiencing (as in OSA, CSA, Mixed, CompSA & PB).

It seems that with 2010 being touted by senior execs from the manufacturers as the year we will see home assessments take off I can see why they are confident this will happen. The newer machines are now the front line.

But having heard what the ZEO can do & perhaps with some improvements, it seems that adding a sensor to the cpaps that can even in a small way assess stages of sleep, that even newer models of cpaps could soon become part of the lab. It seems to me that a machine that can gather a range of data from a patient, and that has some smarts built in such as different modes of operation like we are already seeing (Plain cpap, auto cpap, bilevel, sv) and also some ability to vary the modes intelligently (as already added to the autotitrating epap in the Bipap Auto SV & Weinmann SOMNOVent CR) that perhaps soon, the bult of titration will take plcae at home.

So the picture I see emerging of the near future is CPAP machines that are good enough (even the most basic models) to perform as near a sleep study as one can get without wiring up in a clinic. I doubt we will even need specialized home sleep study devices (largely because they would cost far too much compared to a smart cpap that sells in bulk vs a few sales of any home sleep study devices.

On reflection, we have the compute power, we have the super quiet & rapidly adjusting blower, we have the data storage capability, we have the plug-in oximeter capability, we have the SDB analysis algorithms (auto, sv etc: ), we have the sensor on the forehead to monitor brain waves. The one thing we don't have tidied up completely are easy to fit leak proof masks.

DSM

This has been a fascinated thread to follow, As I wondered how the CPAP world would react to the Zeo.

I ordered one last night and we'll see how it goes. Maybe the sleep lab industry could spent a little of that mountain of cash and buy and couple of these to test.

Mountain of cash? LOL truly not the case here. Reimbursement is at a steady decline while operating cost or going in the opposite direction. To say the least it's a challenging business. Profitable yes mountain of cash (not exactly). However I am obtaining the Zeo for personal analysis.

I don't understand why sleep labs aren't doing this. To me having the ability to monitor people sleep over a long period of time should be the holy grail for sleep medicine. I brought up the Zeo to my sleep lab and they didn't even want to look at the charts from it...

Can't speak for other labs, but we are looking into it (Zeo and other products). You are absolutely correct monitoring people over a long period is our Holy Grail.
Currently we are utilizing the Respironics PDX and the Embla Embletta PDS (as they are the most reliable as far as data at this point) for patients not meeting expectations after six months of therapy. The current reimbursement issue has made PDS (portable diagnostic systems) hard to manage from a business standpoint. We implement it when appropriate.

I am not convinced that most of the data collected in a sleep test is valid because of the extreme lack of comfort during the entire process.

Cannot speak for other labs, but we are giving our best efforts to overcome the comfort aspect. I understand how cumbersome the "entire process" can be but I stand by the validity of the process.. I have had the wonderful opportunity to see life changing events from this process. Not perfect but it works.

There is a technology developed by Philp Low that does better automated scoring and needs only one electrode. I would like to see a Zeo using that algorithm.

NeuroVigil's iBrain is very fascinating. Phillips will bring some new technology into eeg as well as Cardiology component of sleep via Respironics as they have massive resources, talent and experience with algorithms via the Philips CT "Computed Tomography" field. I see Phillips making it's way into sleep in a very big way, both in consumer and clinical markets.

Agape

dsm wrote:On reflection, we have the compute power, we have the super quiet & rapidly adjusting blower, we have the data storage capability, we have the plug-in oximeter capability, we have the SDB analysis algorithms (auto, sv etc: ), we have the sensor on the forehead to monitor brain waves. The one thing we don't have tidied up completely are easy to fit leak proof masks.

Well said. Good summery of the current situation. Its amazing how much things have changed just in the few years that I have been following this stuff.