Day 4. Is this some kind of joke?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
jnk
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Re: Day 4. Is this some kind of joke?

Post by jnk » Wed May 13, 2009 10:38 am

ozij wrote:. . . 16 is a lot - there are machine, that will give you separate pressure for inhale (higher) and exhale (lower) and that may help making the therapy easier on you. Some insurance companies, however, need proof that simple fixed pressure was tried, and failed, before they will pay for the more expensive bi-level machines. Comlaining to the doc may convince him to try a bi-level machine for you.

And I know that for some people the aerophagia (gas swallowing) gets better on a bi-level machine too. . . .
Exactly. And I would follow up on that sooner rather than later, too. It is easier for the doc, the insurance, and the DME, when severity of the problem is known right away so that your machine can be changed out for a bilevel.

In my opinion, that move would be in harmony with AASM guidelines for titration studies (BPAP refers to bilevel, and you are at 16 cm, above the 15 cm mark):
. . . BPAP may be tried if the patient is uncomfortable or is unable to tolerate high pressures while receiving CPAP. If continued obstructive respiratory events at 15-cm H2O of CPAP are documented during the titration study, the patient may be switched to BPAP. . . .

-- http://cme.medscape.com/viewarticle/573316
Those are guidelines for the person doing a sleep study for finding PAP therapy pressures for a patient, but the principle stated there is that if a patient has discomfort or trouble tolerating the pressure but needs pressure above 15 cm, that patient can immediately be titrated for bilevel. That information might be a basis for asking your sleep doc questions in a noncomfrontational, cooperative, but firm way.

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DaveG
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Re: Day 4. Is this some kind of joke?

Post by DaveG » Wed May 13, 2009 10:47 am

Tonight will be day 6 and I look forward to putting the machine on. I love the air being forced into my nose. I have no problems sleeping. I do occasionally wake up though due to the mask and noce pillows moving or being uncomfortable if I move in my sleep. But overall its great. Im only at a setting of 7 though. I dont even need to ramp it. I go straight for the 7 as soon as I get in bed. Its rather straneg but I find the feelign of the air being forced into me as a pleasant thing. I used to have nasal issues too and now they are very minimal. Im not sure if it is because of the humididty being forced into my nose or what but my sinuses feel great right now! I recomend you try the nasal pillows. They were the most comfortable option for me.

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lanndi
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Re: Day 4. Is this some kind of joke?

Post by lanndi » Wed May 13, 2009 10:58 am

I was on the sleepsite.com page (which I believe is funded by ResMed) and found the following:

Central Sleep Apnea also can develop immediately when patients with obstructive sleep apnea are started on treatment with CPAP or bilevel positive airway pressure ("biPAP"). It is vital to understand that this problem (recently termed "COMPLEX SLEEP APNEA " can occur, since it can render treatment with CPAP or bilevel PAP intolerable--and because there now is an excellent new treatment for CSA). http://thesleepsite.com/content/view/76/91/

I haven't seen anyone discuss this as a reason why some can adapt to CPAPS more easily than others. Is this just an advertising ploy or is there something to this?
Starting APAP use 6/11/09 -- Looking forward to a longer, more rested life!

fullfaun
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Re: Day 4. Is this some kind of joke?

Post by fullfaun » Wed May 13, 2009 12:53 pm

I had my CPAP machine (RESMED series that was set at 12 and I have since changed/bumped it up to 14-15 (I found the instructions on how to do that here and it saved me money , since I was laid off and did not have any more insurance) as I gained weight and on those night when I took cough medicine or drank alcohol. I also swallowed a lot of air while gettting used to it. I think this is what the nurse said to me(it has been 5 years ago and I could be wrong), the stomach and the lung should remain seperate because of the flap. It can't do both at once.

Because we have so high pressure, it should seal our lips shut. Here is a saying that helps me: "Lips together and teeth apart." I used it to stop grinding my teeth together at night, but it helps relax that area and keep my lips together.

I set my ramp to zero minutes, since it feels like I am gasping for breath.

BTW, it took a month maybe more for me to get used to the mask. And I changed my mask at least, maybe twice.
My brother is wearing his CPAP only on the weekends now. I am not sure why he isn't using it during the week.

jnk
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Re: Day 4. Is this some kind of joke?

Post by jnk » Wed May 13, 2009 1:21 pm

lanndi wrote: . . . "COMPLEX SLEEP APNEA " can occur . . . it can render treatment with CPAP or bilevel PAP intolerable . . . is there something to this?
Some people have a medical problem involving their heart, or their brain, which causes the brain to pause their breathing. So their breathing pauses even when there is no obstruction happening. So that is a somewhat different problem from strictly obstructive sleep apnea.

Sometimes that central problem isn't uncovered until pressure is applied to their airway in an attempt to treat their sleep apnea. Some of those people adapt to the pressure and the brain no longer pauses their breathing. Others, it seems, need a special kind of machine to deal with their combination of both obstructive and central apneas. The manufacturers are trying to educate the industry about using those machines in those cases.

When ResMed is speaking of those patients, statements about 'not tolerating' a form of PAP therapy is about something different from those with obstructive apneas having aerophagia problems or leaks with high pressure. It is confusing sometimes, though, because the terminology for describing such patients is controversial to some and has changed a bit.

jeff
Last edited by jnk on Wed May 13, 2009 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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riverdreamer
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Re: Day 4. Is this some kind of joke?

Post by riverdreamer » Wed May 13, 2009 1:22 pm

1. You can change the ramp settings. You would have to get into the Clinical Menu, or ask your RT to do it for you. You might want to set your initial ramp pressure to 7, 8, or even 10, if you can tolerate it. That would put you closer to your treatment pressure, and make the jump less severe. It would also relieve the feeling of not enough pressure in the beginning. If you would like the Clinician's Guide, which tells you how to access this info, send me a PM with your email.

2. When you get into the Clinical Menu, you can also set the ramp period for a longer time. You might want to try making one change at a time, if you are doing them yourself. If you need your RT to do so, then you might want to do both. The settings set the maximum time for ramp. You still have an option whether or not to use it, and for how long. This would just give you more options.

3. You may already have access to exhalation pressure relief (EPR). If you choose the menu option when you see the ramp LCD on your machine, it will allow you to access the EPR option, if your doctor ordered it to be set with access. EPR lowers the pressure while you exhale. You can set it to 1,2, or 3 levels of relief. This makes the pressure easier to exhale against, and can make your breathing more natural. It is the closest a CPAP can get to Bi-level, which several people mentioned as an option with higher pressures. You may need a Bi-level, but in the meantime, EPR may help you tolerate the machine better. It may even help with the air in the stomach. I don't know for sure, but just having the pressure lower should help.

To access the Clinical Menu, you hold down the right and down buttons for 3 seconds. The Clinical Menu should flash on your LCD screen, and then you will see options. As you go through the menu, you might want to write down all the current settings, in case you need to change anything back. You want to go into the settings menu, and choose ramp, then pressure, or ramp, then max time for the ramp settings, and choose EPR to change the EPR settings. To choose menu, or options, or to change something, hit the left arrow. To scroll, hit the up or down arrows. To save a change, or to exit a menu, hit the right button. To get out of the Clinical Menu, hit the right button repeatedly, till you are back to your initial screen.

4. To stop air from exiting your mouth, you want to rest your tongue at the top of your mouth, on the palate and gums just behind your top front teeth. Press gently upward. It shouldn't be a big effort, it should just be a matter of making it a habit. Your tongue is supposed to create a seal, so that air is only going through your nose, not your mouth. You can still swallow while this blockade is in place, so you don't have to worry about choking on saliva. As I said, I don't have problems with air going into my stomach, but this may help, and it will at least help some of the chipmunk cheeks from air filling your mouth.

5. I suggest you try spending some time getting used to your machine, while you are awake. Set it up while you are watching TV, or some other distracting activity, and get your mask comfortable, and try running all the settings, ramp, treatment pressure, EPR, no EPR. See if you can figure out what bothers you, and then see if you can troubleshoot it. It is much easier to do than when you are desperate for sleep. When it seems to work OK, just run it to let your body get adjusted. That way, when you go to bed, you will know what you need to help yourself get to sleep.

6. It is possible that you will need a Bi-level machine, and you should certainly let your doctor know if treatment continues to be miserable. The time you spend trying to adjust will not be wasted, because even with a Bi-level, you need to adjust to the machine, the mask, and treatment. It will just make certain aspects easier.

Good luck! There is lots of info here, but it takes time to learn, meanwhile you are trying to sleep, and work. It IS possible to resolve most of these issues, so keep giving it a shot. Instead of starting a new thread each day, you might want to keep reposting in your old one (this one). That way, all the suggestions are in one place, and people won't keep telling you things that have already been suggested. Plus you will have all the info in one place, to look over at your leisure.

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tattooyu
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Re: Day 4. Is this some kind of joke?

Post by tattooyu » Wed May 13, 2009 3:42 pm

I was originally titrated at 16 myself. I now use my machine in Auto mode going from 13.2-17. I've never seen it go above 13.8, and my numbers are extremely good.

I still get some aerophagia depending on what I have eaten that day, but far and wide, it does go away. Keep it up. Don't give up. When you finally get in the zone, you'll be glad you did!
Sleep well and live better!

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Uncle_Bob
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Re: Day 4. Is this some kind of joke?

Post by Uncle_Bob » Wed May 13, 2009 4:45 pm

Hi Charlie

As others have said the pressure is worth looking into. Other than that how is your sleep architecture in general? Do you only go to bed when tired? If i can't get to sleep within 30 mins i get up and read a boring book and then try again. If time gets on I'll take 6mg of melatonin to help me fall asleep. I avoid caffeine other than one coffee first thing and do not drink any alcohol or eat 3 hours before bed time.

Other things you might try is the pur sleep aromatherapy, lots of people use that to help fall asleep with the CPAP.

You might want to try and get used to the machine and use it while watching TV or an hour or so during the day. That way you can spend a good amount of relaxed time adjusting the mask also.

Good luck, its a frustrating but worthwhile journey.