Excellent Replacement for Mouth Taping

Thanks for the info, Rested Gal. I'm thinking that anything that starts with a CPAP mask is probably going to be more than I can pay, though it might depend upon whether I can make a similar device myself. Babs already reported on CPR devices, which I found in my search, along with many plain valves. Most of them were really cheap. I think it would be easy enough to make a device functionally equivalent to the one shown in Rooster's post.

That would solve the "inhaling in an emergency" part of the problem. I guess the biggest issue remaining is what to do about exhaling in that situation. My current thinking is that I might tape one of those CPR devices to my face, and hope that with enough inhalation, I would have sufficient pressure to blow the device out or at least blow it loose enough to exhale.

I have the Oracle and it basically uses two flexible cupped pieces that go both over the outside of your mouth and the inside of your mouth with a gap between them where your lips and part of your cheeks go. These two cupped pieces are drawn closer together through a screw mechanism in the center to create a clamp. It is much stronger a clamp than you would expect by just looking at the device.

It will stay in place and probably won't leak.

In fact, its perhaps too effective that way for how it is used here. If for some reason you needed to breath or expell something out through your mouth, it would block it.

I've noticed that any commercial devices that go over your mouth for CPAP can be overcome by enough force. The chin strap is elastic enough to be forced open. FFMs have vent holes or Anti-Asphyxia Valves (AAVs) to allow breathing (or expelling).

I can think of 3 possible issues associated with the lack of those features in this device (the oracle comes normally with vents and an AAV).
1) it may make deep breaths associated with apnea events more disruptive to sleep. Too much restriction and you may feel the need to remove the mask. I'm thinking 2-3 deep breaths may not rouse you as badly as 5-6 restricted breaths or the need to actually remove the device.
2) it could contribute to asphyxiation. FFMs have AAVs. Many (All?) Nasal masks don't have AAVs. Nasal masks either use a chin strap or nothing to keep the mouth closed. Essentially the Mouth is the alternate breathing pathway if something happens with the nasal mask or nose. (People do tape but no one in a position to be sued pushes it and tape probably could be overcome with forceful enough opening of the mouth.) I suspect the mask that is sold with this device has an AAV.
3) This is sort of gross so be warned. It may be rare, but what happens if you vomit? Initially it would try to be expelled through you nose and that much vomit could do a number on your nasal membrane. If the vomit is 'chunky' or a large quantity it may not be able to vent fully through your nose so it may collect in your throat or get into your airway.

Fisher and Paykel's non-rebreathing valve



The valve in on the right side.

Re: vomiting
I would not tape if I knew I vomited while asleep.
I would not tape if I could not control my hand enought to trust them to remove the never.
I avoid taping when I have an upset stomach.


I have never in my life vomited while asleep.
The last time I vomited was about 14 years ago.

O.

That non-rebreathing valve blocks exhalation air from flowing down the tube. It would block you from exhaling on the modified device. The AAV is in the elbow on the left.

I have never in my life vomited while asleep.
The last time I vomited was about 14 years ago.

I guess you're about due.

nomoore wrote:I never really looked at the oracle mask before though. I like the looks of this thing.

While the Oracle mask looks like it should be a great mask it is without a doubt the hardest mask I have ever used. The 2.5 months I used it where the worst of my life. The biggest problem with it is that it does not allow you to swallow easily. You never realize how important this is until you can't do it. Your mouth is essentially blocked open. This means that your mouth, tongue, and throat get very dry and sore. I mean REALLY dry.

Second problem is with leaks. When you use a nasal mask you get mouth leaks, when you use the oracle you get nasal leaks. I never found a way to control them.

WORST experience of my life.

I've noticed that any commercial devices that go over your mouth for CPAP can be overcome by enough force. The chin strap is elastic enough to be forced open. FFMs have vent holes or Anti-Asphyxia Valves (AAVs) to allow breathing (or expelling).

All cpap masks have vent holes. Those holes are not valves. With Continuous Positive Air Pressure blowing in at you, you need an outlet to keep your lungs from being overblown. Hence the exhaust vents in all cpap masks.

john_dozer wrote:That non-rebreathing valve blocks exhalation air from flowing down the tube. It would block you from exhaling on the modified device.

Only if pressure was lost - and that is its aim.. The danger of asphyxiation feared by the makers of FFM's hybrids and the Oracle is based on the fear that in case of a power failure you will re-breathe the air in the hose, and not get enough fresh air coming in through the vents. In order to avoid that they either have a valve in the mask itself, or, as Fisher and Paykel do, a valve in the circuit. Tha valve is closed by pressurize air, but will drop if pressure is lost and you inhale, opening an additional vent in the system, so that when you breathe in, you will breathe in fresh air from outside the circuit, and not rebreathe the air inside.

The AAV is in the elbow on the left.

No it is not. That may be true of your Liberty, but that is not the case with F&P masks.
Edit - correcting info about the Quattro:

Resmed's Liberty and Quattro masks do indeed have an AAV in elbow.

You can see a good example of the difference between vents and an AAV or non-rebreathing valve on this picture (posted by Hawthorne on another thread):

john_dozer wrote:

I have never in my life vomited while asleep.
The last time I vomited was about 14 years ago.

I guess you're about due.

I wish you the best of health too.
O.

ozij wrote:

I've noticed that any commercial devices that go over your mouth for CPAP can be overcome by enough force. The chin strap is elastic enough to be forced open. FFMs have vent holes or Anti-Asphyxia Valves (AAVs) to allow breathing (or expelling).

All cpap masks have vent holes. Those holes are not valves. With Continuous Positive Air Pressure blowing in at you, you need an outlet to keep your lungs from being overblown. Hence the exhaust vents in all cpap masks.

You are completely missing the point, but I'm not going to try to explain what someone else is intending to say. I'll let him clarify.

john_dozer wrote:It would block you from exhaling on the modified device.

Precisely. That's the problem that still has to be solved.

Please explain how a non rebreathing valve would block breathing on any mask whatsoever.
Please explain why F&P would place a device that blocks your breathing on a FFM.
Please explain why you think it is logical for this valve, placed between the tube and hose to function differently when there is a FFM on the other end of the tube, and when there is nasal, or nasal pillows mask.

This "efficient bias diffuser" in the elbow is used on both FFMs and on the Oracle.

If you're afraid of asphyxiation, this is not what will save you from it. As a matter of fact, it is used in some of F & P's nasal masks as well. http://www.fphcare.com/

When there are holes in the elbow, those are the exhaust vents The Liberty has the vents on the side.

LoQ wrote:
You are completely missing the point

.

Since I think you missed my point, I will try to make my suggestion clearer:

For people who are afraid of asphyxiating while taped, adding a non-rebreathing valve between their mask and the hose should give them as much security /safety as they would have when using a Fisher & Paykel FFM or the Oracle.
This valve is a separate part.
My suggestion is theoretical, in that I do not know the size of the valve and how it will connect to the mask tube of a Breeze or Headrest (whose tube are interchangeable by the way), or any other mask.

The idea however is valid. A "non-rebreathing valve" can be manufactured for other gage tubes. We add "hose quick connects" connectors to our masks, and we could add a non-rebreathing valve in the same way.

O.

I did not miss your point. The problem is, you are on a completely different point from the rest of us. I don't think it is fruitful to try to bring this back on topic. I agree with much of what you say, but it's just irrelevant to the current conversation.

OK, I know I'm coming late to this party, but...

How is this cobbled-together, highly-modified, check-valved, snorkel-mouthed contraption superior to a standard FF mask?

All these mods are to prevent mouth-breathing. A FF mask embraces it.

In my line of work, we call this "over-engineered".

If full face masks would fit everyone, a solution for mouth leaks would not be necessary.

When people can't use a FFM, and yet need to stop mouth leaks they start looking for alternative.
A mouthpiece that does not let air escape your mouth, but would somehow let you inhale if your machine were to loose power are a pretty good solution for people who don't have to breathe through their mouth, and do have major leaks with FFMs.

O.

LinkC wrote:How is this cobbled-together, highly-modified, check-valved, snorkel-mouthed contraption superior to a standard FF mask?

All these mods are to prevent mouth-breathing. A FF mask embraces it.

In my line of work, we call this "over-engineered".

I know it sounds odd to people who sleep comfortably while using a Full Face mask, but there are quite a few people who cannot sleep well at all with a FF mask.

Or can't find one that maintains a reasonably leakproof seal for them. No matter how many they try or how many tweaks they make to them.

I would be quite happy to use a mask that lets me mouthbreathe while I sleep. I was perfectly willing to embrace my lifelong "mouthbreathing while I sleep. But every FF mask I used during my first five months either leaked badly or was not comfortable enough to let me sleep well. Neither the Oracle oral mask, nor any FF mask I've tried then or since, lets me sleep anywhere near as comfortably as several other nasal or nasal pillows masks do.

So....some are willing to go to considerable lengths to prevent their mouthbreathing in order to wear a mask that lets them sleep.

Everyone's different. Various FF masks are a dream for some people; a nightmare for others.

At the risk of belaboring the point (which I fully understand), the photos of this modification appear to be at least as heavy, cumbersome and uncomfortable as a FF. And, it appears to have even MORE opportunities for leakage, although obviously that's a case-by-case thing.

As a confirmed non-leaking, mouth-breathing, happy FF user; I'm probably not sensitive enough to the tribulations of those who aren't, and the extremes they'll entertain. I've just never been in that situation.

Good luck.

LinkC wrote:How is this cobbled-together, highly-modified, check-valved, snorkel-mouthed contraption superior to a standard FF mask? At the risk of belaboring the point (which I fully understand), the photos of this modification appear to be at least as heavy, cumbersome and uncomfortable as a FF. And, it appears to have even MORE opportunities for leakage, although obviously that's a case-by-case thing.
...........

RG,

That mean old LinkC is calling my "Excellent Replacement" junk!

LinkC wrote:At the risk of belaboring the point (which I fully understand), the photos of this modification appear to be at least as heavy, cumbersome and uncomfortable as a FF. And, it appears to have even MORE opportunities for leakage, although obviously that's a case-by-case thing.

As a confirmed non-leaking, mouth-breathing, happy FF user; I'm probably not sensitive enough to the tribulations of those who aren't, and the extremes they'll entertain. I've just never been in that situation.

Good luck.

I think something as uncumbersome as tape is more uncomfortable than a FFM. You seem to be thinking we're looking alternatives to an uncomfortable FFM. My quest is for restorative sleep. So far, no FFM that I've tried provides that. Believe me, if it were as simple as using a FFM, I'd be all over that like a duck on a June bug. It's not that simple, and at least for me, it's not about comfort.