Battery Back-Up in Case of Power Outage

Paul56 · Post by **Paul56** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:53 pm

Speaking deep-cycle batteries and UPS as fire hazards... I have a story to relate...

We have about 200+ servers normally powered by hydro supplied current. When the switch detects the power is failing the power source is switched over to a couple of large APC UPS systems (each about the size of a fridge) and the diesel generator is signaled to start up. The UPS systems carry the load until the power from the diesel generator has stabilized. Once that happens the switch switches the load over to the generator.

Earlier in the summer we started having very erratic power failures through the data center. Ultimately discovered the problem was with one of the UPS system where we discovered some of the internal wiring was literally fried.

If I'm going to use a UPS as backup power for my Resmed S8 AutoSet II + Humidifier I would want one of the CyberPower SineWave Series UPS systems that has the ability to deliver pure sine wave power when running off the battery. At this point I'm not certain it is worth the ~$400 price.

It is that darn humidifier with its finicky power requirements that throws the monkey wrench into all of this.

jnk · Post by **jnk** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:39 pm

Paul56 wrote:. . . darn humidifier with its finicky power requirements that throws the monkey wrench into all of this.

We ResMeders may need to resign ourselves to doing without humidification in a several-day power outage, eh? That would simplify things, right, in making preparations?

Bearded_One · Post by **Bearded_One** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:54 pm

Not using a humidifier tremendously simplifies backing up the power for a CPAP. A humidifier also draws quite a bit of current and dramatically shortens the life of a battery.

ColinP · Post by **ColinP** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:14 am

I've decided that I can do without heated humidification if the power dies - I don't remove the humidifier, so I get pass over which is OK for the occasional power outage. In fact I've stopped taking the humidifier with when I travel - it's just a pain and I seem to manage without it most of the time.

My system is the simplest you can get. Straight wire from the deep cycle battery to the CPAP, no fiddly bits, nothing to draw extra power from the battery, and that's it. It's cheap and it works, and it works for 5 nights if I need it, and it cost a little bit more than a small UPS. I have considered buying a small UPS and ripping the mickey mouse battery out, and connecting the deep cycle one in it's place, but I'll probably rather get a standby inverter instead.

ColinP · Post by **ColinP** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:44 am

powerprotectioncam wrote:
billbolton wrote:
powerprotectioncam wrote:After reading about your unfortunate/rare experience,
Unfortunate yes, but not that rare in these days of increasingly extreme weather events.

powerprotectioncam wrote:I am trying to let everyone know about an AFFORDABLE solution.
Plenty of AFFORDABLE solutions have already been described here over the years.
Not sure why you are being difficult Bill.... I am a CPAP user and am trying to help other CPAP users. If you don't need help, then don't comment.

Whoa there. You may have started the thread, but you don't own it, and anyone is entitled to chip in with their knowedge, experience and even opinions. And particularly when it comes to the first two of those, Bill has more than his fair share. Both of his comments are 100% factual, even if they don't necessarily fit with your view.

And to be strictly correct, you're a CPAP user trying to help other CPAP users and make a small profit too (which I have no problem with but just wanted to 100% clear on that).

powerprotectioncam · Post by **powerprotectioncam** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:42 am

Bearded_One wrote:My deep cell battery is no more of a fire hazard than a UPS, nor is it an eye-sore. Nobody would know that I had a deep cell battery unless I opened the door and showed it to them. My Li-Ion battery is the size of a hard back book, can be tucked anywhere, can be used on an airplane, and it will power my CPAP for more than two nights.

For outages of an hour or so, a UPS would make a very convenient backup power supply. A power outage of an hour or so is inconvenient, but losing up to an hour of sleep is not usually a particularly large problem. Outages of over an hour in duration start becoming an issue, and this is where standalone batteries are needed. People who get power outages of less than an hour, but don't get longer duration outages, would probably do well with the convenience of a UPS. People who get even occasional night time power outages of over an hour will do better with a battery. Batteries are also frequently needed by people who want to go camping; the same battery used for camping can also be used be used as a standby battery while at home.

If a UPS manufacturer wants to make UPS that is useful for use with CPAP, it will need to be rated at about 300 vA, power a CPAP for at least 20 hours, and come out of the box with the alarms disabled.

Thanks for the reply. A 300VA UPS would give a CPAP user about 4-5 minutes of uptime tops. A 300VA UPS would PROBABLY work if an XL connector were provided (for additional battery packs, hence giving more battery uptime), but only units 700VA and up have this connector available. I have been using a 1000VA UPS and it has worked like a champ. I disabled the alarm (so it doesn't wake me up) and it will stay up for a LONG time. I have yet to actually time it, but in 2 1/2 years, it has never left me without my CPAP when I needed it.

OldLincoln · Post by **OldLincoln** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:32 am

I really don't understand the adversity here regarding a UPS. It seems the thread author made a reasonable initial statement and is trying to be helpful. Next the experts jump in and troubleshoot the subject to death. Makes me wonder if being helpful is worth the arrows.

My concern about UPS's is not for experts with their own solutions, but the new users I see almost daily who don't know machines and probably are not remotely interested in becoming an expert. If I were one, I would like to know the simple benefits, how much it costs and were can I get it.

I think advice like bypass the humidifier if separate plug, what brands require pure sine wave, what size for different machines if it matters and anything else useful to those unfamiliar with UPS devices is helpful.

To ensure the unit is up to par, perhaps an expert can review the product and give objective feedback. But please don't kill the messengers.

Paul56 · Post by **Paul56** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:08 am

OldLincoln wrote:I really don't understand the adversity here regarding a UPS.

No adversity on my part at all, but it is good to have a healthy discussion about them *without* issuing disparaging personal remarks.

I had initially planned on using my machine with a UPS but then the kibosh was put on that notion after discovering the power requirements of the humidifier. I also wanted a power backup for longer ( 7 - 8 hours) use and know the UPS is out of the question for that.

If I wanted short term power protection and well as long I would need both the UPS and deep-cycle battery. Strikes me I can get away with the battery only. Whether a couple of hours or all night I can simply turn off the humidifier and run the machine all night.

So those considering the UPS need to ask themselves how many power failures of very short duration do they experience in their areas... if there are a lot then the UPS may be for you.

My .02 cents.

Bearded_One · Post by **Bearded_One** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:29 pm

Then my question is how much difference does it really make if your CPAP occasionally goes out for a short period of time (less than an hour), and then is it worth the $100 to $150 that a UPS costs? How often do UPSs have to be replaced because the battery will no longer hold a useful charge? How easy is it to shut off the alarms that are built into the UPS?

OldLincoln · Post by **OldLincoln** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:08 pm

If all I experienced were (clean) power outages I would agree it isn't any worse than turning your machine off. Unfortunately, when we have a failure, it's usually preceded by a sudden voltage drop, then surge, then it goes out, followed by back on then out again - all before you can get to electronics. Then there's those ultra cute squirrels that chew the insulation off my power feed which then goes to ground then surges up to the 140V range.

So for me it's the surges and dips that have me with surge protectors on my TV's and electronics and UPS's on all PC's.

Bearded_One · Post by **Bearded_One** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:14 pm

One of the reasons I power my CPAP directly from a battery is to keep dirty AC power from my CPAP.

powerprotectioncam · Post by **powerprotectioncam** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:16 am

ColinP wrote:
powerprotectioncam wrote:
billbolton wrote:
powerprotectioncam wrote:After reading about your unfortunate/rare experience,
Unfortunate yes, but not that rare in these days of increasingly extreme weather events.

powerprotectioncam wrote:I am trying to let everyone know about an AFFORDABLE solution.
Plenty of AFFORDABLE solutions have already been described here over the years.
Not sure why you are being difficult Bill.... I am a CPAP user and am trying to help other CPAP users. If you don't need help, then don't comment.
Whoa there. You may have started the thread, but you don't own it, and anyone is entitled to chip in with their knowedge, experience and even opinions. And particularly when it comes to the first two of those, Bill has more than his fair share. Both of his comments are 100% factual, even if they don't necessarily fit with your view.

And to be strictly correct, you're a CPAP user trying to help other CPAP users and make a small profit too (which I have no problem with but just wanted to 100% clear on that).

Correct. Do you work for free ColinP?? I am trying to help.

powerprotectioncam · Post by **powerprotectioncam** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:32 am

OldLincoln wrote:I really don't understand the adversity here regarding a UPS. It seems the thread author made a reasonable initial statement and is trying to be helpful. Next the experts jump in and troubleshoot the subject to death. Makes me wonder if being helpful is worth the arrows.

My concern about UPS's is not for experts with their own solutions, but the new users I see almost daily who don't know machines and probably are not remotely interested in becoming an expert. If I were one, I would like to know the simple benefits, how much it costs and were can I get it.

I think advice like bypass the humidifier if separate plug, what brands require pure sine wave, what size for different machines if it matters and anything else useful to those unfamiliar with UPS devices is helpful.

To ensure the unit is up to par, perhaps an expert can review the product and give objective feedback. But please don't kill the messengers.

Thanks for the support OldLincoln. I decided to stay away for a little while because of all the negative responses. I don't understand "the attitude" that the "experts" are displaying whatsoever. Every thread I have ever placed has been received and replied in good taste, with this thread being the exception.

I can offer a 1000VA UPS, with the speaker disabled and with new APC approved batteries for $195 (new list price is $459) plus shipping. New units purcahsed from APC will not have the alarm disabled. The batteries we install are APC approved and rated to last 3-5 years. I can offer a one year warranty on each unit.

Let me know if I can be of any help guys/gals. Thanks for reading.

Cameron Woolf
Power Protection Partners
(800) 423-8436 x110
(972) 635-2999 x110

DreamStalker · Post by **DreamStalker** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:10 am

One can easily get a good marine deep cycle battery and battery charger setup for less than half that price ... with no alram to disable

OldLincoln · Post by **OldLincoln** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:28 pm

DreamStalker.... Like a lot of people, I prefer a package deal and am hesitant to "build it". I picture a car battery with jumper cables going to my APAP and a battery charger that turns on with a loud clack and hum. It looks like a cartoon in my imagination, of course we can embelish the thought with a pair of heart paddles hanging there as a "backup device" for the extra chuckle. But I would like to know more about how it looks, sounds and is there the acid smell when it's charging (explosive!).

Might be an opportunity for someone to package units.

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