Why doesn't APAP respond to apneas?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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dsm
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Re: Why doesn't APAP respond to apneas?

Post by dsm » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:58 pm

-SWS wrote:Bev can start with whatever EPAP setting satisfactorily happened to address all her obstructive apneas in the past. That's really what the Respironics FAQ suggests in a nutshell.

So whatever that pressure value is, she can plug it in as follows IMO:

EPAP=P cm (or best CPAP/single pressure)
IPAP min=(P+3) cm
IPAP max=(P+10) cm
Backup Rate=Auto

Maybe her best obstructive-addressing P is 9 or 10, or 14. If Bev has a firm idea, that's the pressure value she should start with as P. If Bev doesn't have a firm idea, it's not going to kill her to experimentally start with any of those P values IMO.
I guess my real point here is that it is easier t see & interpret the data whilst starting at the lower pressure than it is to start high & wonder if there is a need to go down. Lower pressures are the preference for any xPAP therapy.

D
xPAP and Quattro std mask (plus a pad-a-cheek anti-leak strap)

-SWS
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Re: Why doesn't APAP respond to apneas?

Post by -SWS » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:02 pm

Let Bev pick any way to skin the cat that suits her. That way she's the main take-charge chef in her own kitchen. Otherwise the peanut gallery chefs are just going to continue having different favorite recipies.

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dsm
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Re: Why doesn't APAP respond to apneas?

Post by dsm » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:06 pm

-SWS wrote:Let Bev pick any way to skin the cat that suits her. That way she's the main take-charge chef in her own kitchen. Otherwise the peanut gallery chefs are just going to continue having different favorite recipies.

Absolutely

DSM

Ps pls pass the cashews - peanuts affect my breathing
xPAP and Quattro std mask (plus a pad-a-cheek anti-leak strap)

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OutaSync
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Re: Why doesn't APAP respond to apneas?

Post by OutaSync » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:10 am

While I wait for my new sleeping partner to arrive, I wanted to say that I thank all of you who have participated in this very enlightening thread. I feel more confident that I understand the process well enough to know what to look for what questions to ask in the future.

Please note that I'm not the only one who has been learning from all of this. It looks as though a few hundred people are following this thread. That is what I love about this forum. Always something new to learn.

Bev
Diagnosed 9/4/07
Sleep Study Titrated to 19 cm H2O
Rotating between Activa and Softgel
11/2/07 RemStar M Series Auto with AFlex 14-17
10/17/08 BiPAP Auto SV 13/13-23, BPM Auto, AHI avg <1

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dsm
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Re: Why doesn't APAP respond to apneas?

Post by dsm » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:56 pm

OutaSync wrote:While I wait for my new sleeping partner to arrive, I wanted to say that I thank all of you who have participated in this very enlightening thread. I feel more confident that I understand the process well enough to know what to look for what questions to ask in the future.

Please note that I'm not the only one who has been learning from all of this. It looks as though a few hundred people are following this thread. That is what I love about this forum. Always something new to learn.

Bev
Bev,

Can hardly wait to get that 1st nights data from you

I guess you willneed to sort out which mask you will use. Do you have a particular one lined up at the moment ?

Cheers & very good luck (not that you will really need luck )

DSM
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Re: Why doesn't APAP respond to apneas?

Post by -SWS » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:08 pm

Good luck, Bev!
Bev,

Can hardly wait to get that 1st nights data from you
If you feel like posting that very first night's data here, and your schedule permits, that is fine. If you don't get the chance to immediately report back, or just prefer working on your own for starters, that is fine too. Whatever suits your fancy, Bev. But I too look forward to seeing and hearing how things go! We're pulling for you!

We're all here for you when you need us. Again, good luck!

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Re: Why doesn't APAP respond to apneas?

Post by OutaSync » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:10 pm

My SV was delivered yesterday and it took me all evening to set it up and figure it out. The thing is huge (about twice the size of my "M") There are a lot of things to set! The only alarm I set was for apneas longer than 30 seconds. Turned in on and put my mask on. What was that horrible rushing noise? I turned it off and looked everywhere for gaping holes. Nothing. Put the mask on and turned it on again. Quiet for a few seconds and then whoosh! Okay, maybe it's just a noisey machine. I'll learn to live with it. Just dozing off when whoosh, a blast of air, and then another before I could catch my breath. Over and over a huge rush of air and then a drop to silence. Noise, silence, noise silence, my chest fills up with air and then my stomach. Within 4 minutes, I'm passing gas and this thing is making my Activa heave like it's never heaved before. Eye leaks, edge leaks, I think it's going to lift off of my face. The next hour I lie there listening to the noise with every breath and everytime I doze off whoosh it kicks in again. I can't sleep like this, the pressure must be to high (EPAP 11, IPAP min 14 , IPAP max 21) I get up, belch a lot, read my notes, decide to lower the pressure to EPAP 9, IPAP min 11. Another two hours go by, I can't sleep. Then I remember that i had forgotten to take my Ambien, take it, go back to bed and sometime after 4, I must have fallen asleep, because an alarm woke me up. APNEA alarm. It went off two more times , I was too tired to look at the screen, so ignored it, it went off after a while. Sometime after 8 I woke up and tried to go back to sleep, but couldn't.

I don't think you would be able to tell much from my reports since i felt as though I was awake most of the night, but here it is.
Image

All, in all, not a good night for me.

Bev
Diagnosed 9/4/07
Sleep Study Titrated to 19 cm H2O
Rotating between Activa and Softgel
11/2/07 RemStar M Series Auto with AFlex 14-17
10/17/08 BiPAP Auto SV 13/13-23, BPM Auto, AHI avg <1

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dsm
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Re: Why doesn't APAP respond to apneas?

Post by dsm » Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:44 pm

Bev,

Looks like some tuning needed here

What you describe sounds strange, the whoosh then silence isn't normal. The blower on the machine runs at a constant speed & the airvalve adjusts where the air goes & in what quantity (at any given time, some to you, some back into the blower).

The normal way the machine works is that when you power it on, the motor runs up to speed (couple of seconds) then the airvalve gets activated & that sounds like a mild thump (which is the outer sleeve that has an electromagnetic coil which thumps when it is being energized into position).

The machine does tend to make a bit of 'white' noise but each night that slowly goes away unless, the H/H isn't pushed home well in which case there can be leak noise between the H/H and the machine.

Alarms - set them all to 0 - you don't need them - they are for clinical / hospice use.

If you are not used to a bilevel, then the epap-to-ipap switching is going to feel strange. And, I would advise setting ipapMin no more than 3 CMs above epap (which was pretty well agreed before hand). I agree with trying epap = 9 for a night or so to help you get used to the machine but doubt that is going to be your longer term epap setting.

Also until you get used to the machine, I would advise (even if for just a night or 2) you drop IpapMax back to 18 just to help you get used to the PS (SV) working.
Your data shows that PS was activated several times & went to IpapMax. Your leak is surprisingly low for a 1st time use - clearly the mask is ok & fits well.

The PS mechanism despite what some may claim, is most unlikely to cause arousals. The risetime can.

More later

DSM
Last edited by dsm on Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why doesn't APAP respond to apneas?

Post by -SWS » Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:59 pm

Sorry to hear you had a hard time sleeping, Bev. I'd suggest turning the apnea alarm all the way off (you never had it on your previous machines). Also, it sounds as if IPAP/EPAP pressure cycling kept you awake. That can take some getting used to---especially with IPAP peak fluctuating as much as it did during your attempted sleep session.

It's that fluctuating IPAP peak---let alone while awake--- that can make SV so unfriendly to the wake/stage-1 sleep transition. You may initially need your ambien just to get used to that IPAP peak fluctuation while awake.

On that basis I would suggest initially turning SV completely off while you first learn to sleep with ordinary BiLevel. When it comes to BiLevel, some people may conceivably need to learn how to crawl (with low constant IPAP pressures) before they learn to run (with wildly or dynamically fluctuating IPAP pressures). If you would like to spend a few nights learning how to sleep with basic BiLevel before attempting to try SV modality, then just set IPAP max as low as you have your IPAP min. When IPAP max equals IPAP min, you have SV turned off and you are running at ordinary Bilevel. See if you can learn to sleep with simple BiLevel first, collecting important baseline data along the way. Then as soon as you get comfortable sleeping with ordinary BiLevel, consider experimentally turning SV modality on, perhaps initially limited to a few cm above IPAP min---then experimentally extend that IPAP max if it feels comfortable.

Toward learning how to fall asleep with ordinary BiLevel: See Dr. Krakow's Pearls of BiLevel therapy posts. Somewhere in this lengthy thread he suggests what patients can do to learn how to comfortably sleep with BiLevel:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26896&p=232510#p232510

Also, what's your current rise time? Since you're not primarily a centrally-dyregulated patient, you can experiment with a longer rise time if that's more comfortable. Once you have a comfortable rise time dialed in that doesn't dysregulate, you can use that same rise time when you experimentally turn SV back on. In summary: I suggest that you first get acclimated to just as much as possible (the idea, the smell, the whooshing, the rise time, the slight cycling of ordinary BiLevel, etc.) before finally turning SV on for yet a second acclimation period. That first acclimation period at ordinary BiLevel should also allow you to figure out what fixed BiLevel pressure is just enough to address all your obstructive apneas and hypopneas.


Last but not least, there's always the option of CPAP with SV to eventually try. It's there for a purpose. Some patients find CPAP more comfortable than BiLevel, but still need that SV to occasionally kick in on an as-needed basis.

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Re: Why doesn't APAP respond to apneas?

Post by OutaSync » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:15 pm

My leak line looks good, but it says 56.1 and I usually have around 39 with the same mask. Why the big difference? I pushed inthe HH as far as it would go, it was a very tight fit. I think the sounds that kept me awake were the differences in pressure with every breath. It wasn't smooth and steady like my Auto M. It was a hard push and then a sudden drop. Wouldn't a difference between EPAP and IPAP Min of 2 be more comfortable?

These charts don't show centrals, either, right? It looks to me as though the Hyponeas occurred in the middle of the rise inpressure, maybe caused by the rise? The alarm was set to go off after 30 seconds of not breathing and it went off 3 times. I will turn that off, it was annoying.

I'll try to get some sleep tonight so we can have better data. That was a very rough night. I had some very bad nights when I was first on CPAP, too. Had a real hard time getting used to all of this stuff.

Bev
Diagnosed 9/4/07
Sleep Study Titrated to 19 cm H2O
Rotating between Activa and Softgel
11/2/07 RemStar M Series Auto with AFlex 14-17
10/17/08 BiPAP Auto SV 13/13-23, BPM Auto, AHI avg <1

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dsm
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Re: Why doesn't APAP respond to apneas?

Post by dsm » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:17 pm

Bev,

Before we panic too much in getting you comfortable with the SV by deactivating it or de-tuning it to much. Look at your data again - your AI & HI numbers are excellent & if I could get a 0.0 AI on my SV I would be very happy. 4 HI events for the whole night is equally impressive.

In retrospect, your data is looking good.

Cheers

DSM
xPAP and Quattro std mask (plus a pad-a-cheek anti-leak strap)

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Re: Why doesn't APAP respond to apneas?

Post by OutaSync » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:20 pm

Yeah, but I was awake all night. Only dozed off a few times.

Bev
Diagnosed 9/4/07
Sleep Study Titrated to 19 cm H2O
Rotating between Activa and Softgel
11/2/07 RemStar M Series Auto with AFlex 14-17
10/17/08 BiPAP Auto SV 13/13-23, BPM Auto, AHI avg <1

-SWS
Posts: 5301
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:06 pm

Re: Why doesn't APAP respond to apneas?

Post by -SWS » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:21 pm

The ASV machine and Encore charts are incapable of distinguishing centrals from obstructives, Bev. They just pick up on apneas or hypopneas without knowing which type.

Re: setting IPAP and EPAP only 2 apart. If SV mode is enabled (with a higher IPAP max value), then you're going to cycle at more than 2 cm apart. That's why I'd suggest learning to first sleep with ordinary BiLevel that has a fixed IPAP/EPAP spread of 3 cm (SV mode turned off).

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Re: Why doesn't APAP respond to apneas?

Post by OutaSync » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:25 pm

Good idea. I din't see where I could change modes. I was wondering about that in the middle of the night while I was awake and not wanting to turn on the light again to read the manual.
Diagnosed 9/4/07
Sleep Study Titrated to 19 cm H2O
Rotating between Activa and Softgel
11/2/07 RemStar M Series Auto with AFlex 14-17
10/17/08 BiPAP Auto SV 13/13-23, BPM Auto, AHI avg <1

User avatar
dsm
Posts: 6996
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:53 am
Location: Near the coast.

Re: Why doesn't APAP respond to apneas?

Post by dsm » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:27 pm

Bev,

I do agree that setting the IpapMin to 2 over epap will be very helpful to you to get used to bilevels. I had used a bilevel for 2 years before going to my SV.
Re the hypopneas - the data shows you started to drop below peak flow target, your BPM started to drop as well - the machine responded with PS which began to lift your tidal volume then in the middle of that process it scored a hypopnea & raised PS further.

Re SWS's comment that the SV cycles at higher than IpapMin. Steve, it will only do that if there is an apnea - under normal operation it cycles between epap & ipapMin (which is what IpapMin is for). Bev could deactivate the PS mechanism - that would help her get use to the basic bilevel but I would doubt that doing so makes any big difference as it is clear that Bev is thrown by the whole bilevel experience.

DSM
xPAP and Quattro std mask (plus a pad-a-cheek anti-leak strap)