Fisher-Paykel FFM Flexifit 431: Headgear problem

wintersweet · Post by **wintersweet** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:48 pm

So I finally got my prescribed Fisher-Paykel FFM from Apria. My doctor suggested that it might be more comfortable than my Mirage Quattro, which seemed to be triggering migraines from the pressure of the headgear on the back of my head. Of course, my local Apria doesn't bother to do any kind of fitting or wear instructions or anything. I've tried adjusting the Fisher-Paykel as the included directions indicate, but I just can't get it right. If I scoot the mask to where it's shown on the directions, the back top part of the headgear is actually ABOVE my head, and the resulting looseness means leaks aplenty. If I tug it down to where it's touching my head, the back bottom part of the headgear is pretty far down on my neck. And then it scoots back up on its own. The first night I wound up tightening everything like mad, and kind of got it to stay sealed for the night, but a) I wound up with red marks on my face and neck, and b) I couldn't even duplicate that last night. (Boy, I'm tired now!)

What am I doing wrong? Is it just too tall for my head? I had this problem a little with the Quattro too, but not to this degree.

I'd really like this to work, because it does seem to be more comfortable than the Quattro--in theory. :/ Any suggestions are welcome, and please let me know if I missed a helpful post when I searched.

(Note, I have long hair, so my hair can't really help it stay in place. I wonder how badly I'm damaging my hair with this thing sliding back and forth!)

Thanks!

GumbyCT · Post by **GumbyCT** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:07 pm

Not being able to see the shape of your head, I'm shooting in the dark here. But 1st this is Today on NBC - couldn't help myself.

1st thing - the mask is designed to put your chin in (the cup) first, Then bring the mask up to your face - making everything fit from there. Don't move the mask around but tighten the straps down. Looking in a mirror is a big help until you have it down.

Try that for a night - if it still doesn't fit right AND you are handy lay the Quattro & 431 side by side. Make notes so you can remember how the straps are attached. Or better yet, take pictures if you have a camera. If I remember correctly, the clips are a bit different.

For me, I had a better fit using the Resmed headgear with the F&P 431 & 432 mask. You can try putting the Resmed headgear on the F&P, if you feel comfortable doing so.

You never mentioned what your pressure is? For some reason the F&P headgear stretches really easy when you have to tight it down. I have had better luck with the Resmed headgear.

Good Luck,
GumbyCT

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): resmed

wintersweet · Post by **wintersweet** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:17 pm

Thanks, for your guesses and suggestions, GumbyCT--yeah, I don't THINK my head is freakishly shaped, but perhaps it is! I'll try putting it on as you described. Using the ResMed headgear wouldn't work, since it was the headgear that was causing the migraines.

I'm using an APAP. I don't remember the pressure range right now, but I think it's 9-12 or something like that.

jules · Post by **jules** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:23 pm

A couple ideas -

I don't know this mask or this headgear, but I found with my Soyala FFM, a couple of inch or so wide elastic bands crossed over the back of my head worked better for me than the provided headgear.

Some people have used velcro on headgear to anchor the headgear into the hair (sets of the teeth dig into the hair).

GumbyCT · Post by **GumbyCT** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:10 pm

wintersweet wrote:Using the ResMed headgear wouldn't work, since it was the headgear that was causing the migraines.

If I am remembering correctly the forehead piece is quite different between the two. The 431 only presses in one spot right above and between the eyes. The Quattro has a piece about 3 inches wide pressing in 2 spots on the forehead.

I know for me it is that forehead pressure that I couldn't deal with. The pressure was transferred when side sleeping. I doubt it was the headgear the was doing giving you headaches, but so be it.

wintersweet · Post by **wintersweet** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:54 am

I know for me it is that forehead pressure that I couldn't deal with. The pressure was transferred when side sleeping. I doubt it was the headgear the was doing giving you headaches, but so be it.

Well, of course, it's hard to say. The forehead pieces on both have been fine for me. The back of the Quattro straps pressed into what seems to be a trigger point for headaches for me--either that or it wold just make a barely perceptible headache worse. I don't know. Anyway, the doctor thought it was worth a try, so we'll see.

Jules, that's an interesting idea too... hmm...

chipbutty · Post by **chipbutty** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:06 am

Wintersweet - I have the same problem as you with the 432 headgear, I'm assuming they're the same. I have that top strap (I think F&P call it the crown strap) on top of my head almost like a chin strap and tightened down snugly, not tight. I have the other straps done up fairly tightly. It doesn't look right but it's the only way I can get it to fit.

And don't get me started on that chin cup! I can never get my chin to stay in there once I'm asleep

Sideswiper · Post by **Sideswiper** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:06 am

I use this mask and I'm still trying to get a mixture of comfort and no leaking.

If they gave you the wrong size silicon insert, you might be out of luck. They should let you try the small, medium, and large sizes.

OK, there are three pairs of velcro straps to work with.

Your chin is suppose to fit into the mask. This is the only "under the chin" mask. It doesn't go very far under my chin, but some. If air is leaking under the chin, well, that's a problem.

The straps from the bottom of the mask may need to go down and around to the back of your neck. I feel the pressure from these straps on my neck just below the base of my skull. Perhaps this will allow you the get the "crown straps" at the top of your head to actually touch the top of your head? The other straps that attach to the top to the mask need to be tight enough to stop the air from blowing in your eyes.

I have the "crown straps" as loose as possible but so they're still attached. However, I have a big head. The other two sets of straps are very tight.

chipbutty · Post by **chipbutty** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:26 am

I've been playing around with some velcro sticky pads and straps in the hope of fixing my chin into the cup. So far the 432 has resisted all my attempts and it still leaks badly under the chin. My 432 came with all three silicon inserts.

If I have success modding the mask I'll take some pics and post them up.

wildmt · Post by **wildmt** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:01 am

I have used this FFM as backup on occassions and like it very much as far as fit BUT the headgear stretches out easily during the first night and is nearly useless for a second night without tightening everything some more. I can't use it more than two nights in a row because the headgear does not retain it's original stretch. Kinda dumb to have such a headgear on a good mask.

GumbyCT · Post by **GumbyCT** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:36 am

wildmt wrote:I have used this FFM as backup on occassions and like it very much as far as fit BUT the headgear stretches out easily during the first night and is nearly useless for a second night without tightening everything some more. I can't use it more than two nights in a row because the headgear does not retain it's original stretch. Kinda dumb to have such a headgear on a good mask.

Exactly what I was trying to say - I thought it was me having trouble. Great fitting mask, very comfy but leaks between the eyes & under the chin. Tighten the straps go to sleep & wake up to more leaks.

Using the Resmed headgear helped alot. I think it was RG who told me some people just turn the headgear upsidedown to help with leaks too.

Who'da thunk it? She gets blamed for everything else, so what one more thing?

wintersweet · Post by **wintersweet** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:46 pm

Hmm, strange. Maybe if I wash the headgear every couple of days it won't stretch too much.

Apria DID include all three insert sizes. Yesterday I tried the small and that seemed to help with the eye leaks. I think overall it fit better last night (using the chin-first method suggested here) although there was some cursing for the first fifteen minutes or so.

I might need to get a new pillow, too, and maybe a new mattress! I have a feeling my saggy old mattress is making it hard for me to line up my head/neck/spine in a normal way.

CRMW · Post by **CRMW** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:21 am

It sounds to me like you all are tightening the head gear to tight. I keep it quite loose, when the machine is not on there is no seal to my face. When I turn the machine on and it pressures up, I pull the mask away from my face and the seal fills with air pushing it against my face to create the seal.

Chris

Sideswiper · Post by **Sideswiper** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:50 am

CRMW wrote:I keep it quite loose, when the machine is not on there is no seal to my face. When I turn the machine on and it pressures up, I pull the mask away from my face and the seal fills with air pushing it against my face to create the seal.

Well, that is what I used to do, until I got my software and it was reading it's maximum leak rate (100?). The leak rate on this mask is supposed to be 39-50, correct? http://www.internetage.com/cpapinfo/leak-rates-1.html After tightening the straps more, I've got the leak rate down to about 60, which is still high for my pressure at 14/10.

chipbutty · Post by **chipbutty** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:18 am

I've tried it loose, medium tight, tighter. You name it! Loose does work fine and seals very well, but not under my chin. The reason I have to over tighten the glider straps is to get it to seal under the chin. But tightening only marginally increases the seal under the chin. When my chin drops and relaxes it comes completely away from the chin seal causing a leak of hurricane proportions.

To try and fix this I've tried, Mack's silicon putty, velcro straps, chin strap, medical tape, gel spots.

It's a shame, other than the chin problem it seals better than anything else I've tried.

[quote="CRMW"]It sounds to me like you all are tightening the head gear to tight. I keep it quite loose, when the machine is not on there is no seal to my face. When I turn the machine on and it pressures up, I pull the mask away from my face and the seal fills with air pushing it against my face to create the seal.

Chris

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Fisher-Paykel FFM Flexifit 431: Headgear problem

Fisher-Paykel FFM Flexifit 431: Headgear problem

Re: Fisher-Paykel FFM Flexifit 431: Headgear problem