Using a Bipap Auto SV and using a Vpap Adapt SV

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
-SWS
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Post by -SWS » Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:51 pm

BiPAP® autoSV™ Frequently Asked Questions wrote:Question-Does the BiPAP autoSV operate like an Auto CPAP or Auto Bi-level device for treating obstructive events?

Answer- No – The device does not have an auto-titrating algorithm to alleviate obstructive events. The innovative algorithm was designed to treat complex apnea and periodic breathing. The obstructive component of SDB is treated utilizing a clinician adjustable CPAP or BiPAP pressure level.
So just what is an "obstructive component" to sleep disordered breathing (SDB)? In short, any combination of these: 1) obstructive apneas, 2) obstructive hypopneas, 3) obstructive flow limitations, and/or 4) snoring. These are the SDB issues sometimes referred to as the "plumbing" or "airway conduit" type problems.

By contrast central SDB issues are sometimes referred to as "electrical signal" problems. They can include central apneas, central hypopneas, central hypoventilation , periodic breathing, and central hyperventiation. These central issues are the breathing problems that Servo Ventilation employs a fluctuating PS to automatically treat.

Both SV manufacturers ask that obstructive SDB components be manually titrated or addressed so that Servo Ventilation's fluctuating PS can specifically address the central components of SDB.

Hope that explanation helps newcomers!
.


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Post by dsm » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:38 am

Am adding this to offer my perspective on why each cpap machine type was created and the basics of how it works (in this basic set of descriptions I won't go into c-flex, a-flex or EPR & any other exhale relief add-ons. They would introduce too many areas of confusion ) ...

1. Cpap - Mid 1980s
The original basic Cpap - delivered a single pressure to splint the airway open. Now, modern cpaps also monitor the pressure at the air exit port & when the sleeper breathes back into the hose, these machines will lower the pressure a little so as to maintain the pressure they are set for - if they didn't do this (as was the case in older cpaps) the pressure from the machine + the pressure from the sleeper breathing out, would combine to create a much larger pressure that contributed to mask leaks & user unhappiness & thus non-compliance.

The pressure a Basic Cpap is set to must 1) overcome the sleeper's worst OSA and 2) be set with just enough extra pressure to help significantly reduce hypopneas and flow limitations (the simple difference between a hypopnea & a flow limitation is basically that a hypopnea is scored when the airflow from the sleeper drops by 50% for at least 10 secs - it the drop doesn't meet that test it is called a flow-limitation - i.e. if the 50% drop only lasted 9 secs it is not scored as a hypopnea)

2. Bilevel Cpap - Late 1980s
A Bilevel - delivers two pressures - a lower pressure when the sleeper breathes out (called Epap) & a higher pressure for when the sleeper breathes in (called Ipap). These machines sense the airflow to decide when to switch from epap to ipap & back. They also introduced 'risetime' which is a setting in the machine that adjusts how fast the machine goes from epap to ipap. Some people can't handle fast rises in pressure. But, setting the risetime too slow tends to reduce the amount of air pumped in a given breathing cycle.

Modern Bilevels have even more enhancements that help smooth the pumping action (wave shape) such that it better mimics natural breathing. The early bilevels were a bit rough in this regard.

The two pressures were needed for patients who could not tolerate single pressure therapy. This could be because of lung problems such as with COPD patients. Then by adding a timed mode to bilevels, they were used to treat people with central apneas as the timed mode could be used to switch pressure from epap to ipap at a timed interval which helped people with centrals to get their breathing going again. Originally all Bilevels were very very expensive but now not much dearer than a standard cpap and thus increasingly popular.

As happens with all new expensive advances these originally got designated for special case patients as medical funds do not want to pay more out than they have to to meet their basic obligations. Bilevels were originally classified as machines for such special cases. Today almost anyone put on cpap therapy can ask for one. To many users they are better than a single therapy pressure as delivered by a cpap or an auto cpap (see next para - even though autos can adjust that single delivered pressure slowly up & down).


3. Auto Cpap - Circa 2000
The auto machines are like a cpap that delivers a single breath-in breathe-out pressure but with an added ability to adjust the delivered pressure slowly up and later slowly back down. The pressure increase would be initiated when the machine detected changes in the sleeper's breathing during the night that indicated a looming obstruction. The pressure delivered was still the same for breathe-in as for breathe-out. This one pressure gets raised or lowered as circumstances alter during sleep. The intent was to help users start the night with a lower pressure than a cpap would be set to. Then as needed the machine would only raise pressure if it detected a reason to do so.

The pressure changes are very slow and not rapid as we tended to believe in the early days of their arrival in the market. e.g. if the sleeper started out with a CMS of 8, and started to snore or show other patterns of breathing that indicated a looming obstruction, the machine would gently & slowly raise the pressure in short steps followed by a pause in the hope it could prevent a more serious apnea that would lower the sleepers blood oxygen saturation. The machine might say raise pressure over a few minutes to say 11 CMS. If the sleeper then appeared to be breathing normally the machine would usually then gently lower the one pressure to a lower number (eventually back 8 CMS in this example).

Auto Cpaps are not capable of treating central apneas and the reason they adjust so slowly is because they have to avoid mistaking a central apnea for an obstructive apnea plus many users can suddenly start having central apneas brought on by the pressure being applied by the machine (pressure induced centrals). These pressure induced centrals can be triggered by a cpap, an auto cpap or a bilevel.

What put Autos apart from both cpap and bilevel was that by aprox 2005 prices had come down but more importantly these machines included the ability for someone to extract the nights data from the machine onto a data card or by a serial link to a PC. This capability triggered a wave of consumer interest that made sales boom. At last people saw an opportunity to monitor their own therapy (and for very good reason). Standard cpaps and early bilevels (even up to 2006) could not fully provide the same level of data. But nowadays, almost all new machines (except the really el-cheapo bottom end cpaps), will gather nightly data and allow it to be download.

Auto cpaps had this nightly data because it was used by the the machine to carry out analysis so it could make its adjustments to the delivered pressure. The auto cpap machine created detailed data that the machine's internal computer used to make its decisions. Autos would have been the first general purpose cpap type machines to really exploit micro-processors.

Bilevels too soon incorporated micro-processors and they too eventually began to be able to deliver similar nightly data like Auto cpaps could.

4. Auto Bilevel Cpap - 2006
4) The next notable breakthrough for general cpap use was the introduction of Auto Bilevels. These offered the benefits of two pressures, the usual low breathe-out pressure (Epap) and the usual higher breath-in pressure (Ipap), and then to improve on that introduced the same sensing of pre-apnea obstruction events that the Auto cpaps did so could raise both the Epap pressure and Ipap pressure together in response to deteriorating breathing conditions brought on from OSA. Many people have benefited greatly from this advance. The Auto Bilevel is currently the most advanced type of cpap machine suitable for OSA patients. The standard Bilevel Auto still can't deal with centrals. These machines are targeted at the general OSA population.

5. Servo Ventilation (or Tri-Level Cpap) - approx 2007
In 2007 we started to see a new specialized machine that although it's predecessor had been around since 2001 and originally called the 'Autoset CS'. The CS stood for Cheynes-Stokes - a serious breathing disorder often associated with chronic heart failure (see http://www.resprecare-medical.nl/autosetcs.html ), the Autoset CS was redesigned in the mid 2000s to expand beyond just Cheynes-Stokes breathing and then made more widely available in 2007. The new version was called the Vpap Adapt SV (in Australia, it was called the Vpap Autoset CS2). Another brand also appeared about this time and that was the Bipap Auto SV. It too was based on an earlier specialized machine.

The Auto used in the Bipap Auto SV name is not to be confused with the Auto as in 'Auto Cpap or Auto Bipap'. The Auto SV means automatically adjusting the peak-flow or the breathing rate or the instantaneous respiratory volume, rapidly - on a breath-by-breath basis. Auto as in Auto Cpap & Auto Bipap automatically adjusts the delivered pressure (slowly), in response to detecting looming OSA events by monitoring snoring, flow-limitations & hypopneas).

Both brands of SV machine were originally designed for very special case users uch as those people with periodic or irregular breathing as seen in Cheynes-Stokes breathing and later extended to include people with severe centrals or mixed apnea (OSA plus Centrals).

The current SV machines are not specifically designed to target OSA patients but by manually adjusting Epap can control enough aspects of standard OSA events. This is done for the patient by having the titration therapist set an Epap pressure high enough (during titration) such that this Epap pressure eliminates most OSA events, then an Ipap pressure (IpapMIN) gets set that further controls other OSA activity (hypopneas & flow limitations) and then a third higher pressure is set (IpapMAX) that the machine will apply if the sleeper's breathing volume of air or breathing rate (breaths per minute - BPM), drops below a tracked average value. So in normal situation with no irregular breathing or when the sleeper is maintaining a healthy flow of air, the SV machines operates like a normal bilevel but as soon as the sleeper slows their breathing rate too quickly or quickly drops how much air they are breathing, the machine on a breath-by-breath basis can rapidly increase Ipap above the IpapMIN setting up to a point where the machine determines the sleeper is back within a target range it has been tracking.

This approach has been very successful for people with irregular breathing who previously may have required a hospital ventilator or who were managing to get by with a timed mode Bilevel.

6. The Future ?
In time we may see a version of SV that adds similar auto adjustment to the Epap setting such that it looks for worsening OSA events and slowly raises Epap and Ipap up just like the Auto Bilevel does today, but any such machine is going to be a marvel of algorithmic sophistication as it will have so many variations of event to track and such a range of pressure to apply. Also, the mask needed for such sophistication may not have been created yet.

DSM


#2 revised & clarified.

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): cpap machine, auto cpap, bipap, hose, C-FLEX, Titration, CPAP, Hypopnea, auto

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Last edited by dsm on Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:05 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by OutaSync » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:04 am

DSM, Banned, SWS,

You guys are fantastic. Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge and experience with all of us. You may never know how many people you are helping, but you can see how many people have read this thread.

I have taken notes and now feel confident that I understand enough to talk intelligently with my doctor.

You mentioned upgrading your Encore Pro for the Auto SV. Where did you get the upgrade? Also, it sounds as though I could use the clinician manual. I assume that the SV does not come with that.

I'm sure I'll be back with questions. I knew if I watched this forum long enough I would find the answer to my sleep problems.

Thanks again,
Bev

Diagnosed 9/4/07
Sleep Study Titrated to 19 cm H2O
Rotating between Activa and Softgel
11/2/07 RemStar M Series Auto with AFlex 14-17
10/17/08 BiPAP Auto SV 13/13-23, BPM Auto, AHI avg <1

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Post by Banned » Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:50 pm

OutaSync wrote:DSM, Banned, SWS,
Also, it sounds as though I could use the clinician manual. I assume that the SV does not come with that.
Generally speaking, clinician's manual manuals should be available. DSM can probably speak to the EncorePro upgrade for the SV.

Sounds like you are feeling better already.

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Last edited by Banned on Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AVAPS: PC AVAPS, EPAP 15, IPAP Min 19, IPAP Max 25, Vt 520ml, BPM 10, Ti 1.8sec, RT 2 (Garage)
BiPAP Auto SV: EPAP 9, IPAP Min 14, IPAP Max 25, BPM 10, Ti 2sec, RT 2 (Travel Machine)
VPAP Adapt SV: EEP 10.4, Min PS 4.4 (Every Day)
Mask: Quattro

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Post by OutaSync » Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:23 pm

For the third time since I started all of this, I'm feeling as though there may be some hope. It is a good feeling.

Bev
Diagnosed 9/4/07
Sleep Study Titrated to 19 cm H2O
Rotating between Activa and Softgel
11/2/07 RemStar M Series Auto with AFlex 14-17
10/17/08 BiPAP Auto SV 13/13-23, BPM Auto, AHI avg <1

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Post by Banned » Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:32 pm

OutaSync wrote:For the third time since I started all of this, I'm feeling as though there may be some hope. It is a good feeling.
Bev
I'm sure, once you have your new SV, you will want the Encore SW. You will need to order a Respironics USB Card reader.

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Last edited by Banned on Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AVAPS: PC AVAPS, EPAP 15, IPAP Min 19, IPAP Max 25, Vt 520ml, BPM 10, Ti 1.8sec, RT 2 (Garage)
BiPAP Auto SV: EPAP 9, IPAP Min 14, IPAP Max 25, BPM 10, Ti 2sec, RT 2 (Travel Machine)
VPAP Adapt SV: EEP 10.4, Min PS 4.4 (Every Day)
Mask: Quattro

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Post by dsm » Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:53 pm

Just wanted to add that the Biap SV I have is now starting to quieten down. When I 1st started using it, my wife was not happy even though it didn't bother me (but I have high frequency hearing loss & that helps me a lot re machine noise).

I have known for a long while that the older Bipaps (which use the same design arrangement as this new Bipap SV) often start noisy when new but over time seem to bed the blower in and the drone noise starts to abate.
Even during the night the drone noise starts higher than it drops quite a bit.
Restarting the machine set the noise louder again but only for a short while. Even that is quietening down.

The M-Series Bipaps are built differently to the older Bipaps & the Bipap SV as they used a different style blower/motor. The Bipap SV & older Bipaps used a separate blower & a separate air control device. The fan motor gets run at a constant speed & the air pressure is adjusted via a separate air return valve.

The M-series introduced a combined blower/motor that adjusts pressure by changing speed. But, the M-series machines do tend to whine up & down a bit. Respironics are improving this.

Today my wife commented about how much quieter the SV machine had become - it now has approx 500+ hrs on the clock since new. She is no longer bothered by it (she did spend 2 weeks in the spare room but we both had colds & that made us both restless during sleep as well. She cited the blower drone as one of her reasons for wanting a few nights in the other room).

DSM

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Last edited by dsm on Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by dllfo » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:37 pm

I am on my third SV and it is also over 500 hours... and is much quieter. Like DSM, I have a huge hearing loss in the upper ranges, so it was never loud to me, but my wife complained. Hence the joke of comparing the noise level of our SV units to a Leaf Blower on high speed.

This is interesting material you are digging out. As I have told you in emails, I have the Encore Pro 1.8.65 that works with the SV, but have not had any luck making a "back up" copy. I made them, but they would not install.

DSM gave me a new suggestion and I downloaded the info --- then promptly forgot why I downloaded it. Too many meds. I will make a note to myself on my electronic calendar to see if I can't copy 1.8.65 again. I wish we had a version of Encore Pro Analyzer that would interpret all the data. That would be nice.

Installing Software is like pushing a rope uphill.
I have Encore Pro 1.8.65 but could not find it listed
under software.

I LOVE the SV.

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Post by Banned » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:42 pm

dsm, dilfo,

I noticed you are using EncorePro v.1.8.49. and v.1.8.65, respectively. Do you know if EncorePro v.1.8i Release 2 (2007) would be a newer or older version than v.1.8.49 and v.1.8.65?

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Last edited by Banned on Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
AVAPS: PC AVAPS, EPAP 15, IPAP Min 19, IPAP Max 25, Vt 520ml, BPM 10, Ti 1.8sec, RT 2 (Garage)
BiPAP Auto SV: EPAP 9, IPAP Min 14, IPAP Max 25, BPM 10, Ti 2sec, RT 2 (Travel Machine)
VPAP Adapt SV: EEP 10.4, Min PS 4.4 (Every Day)
Mask: Quattro

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Post by dsm » Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:19 pm

Banned wrote:dsm,

I noticed you are using EncorePro v.1.8.49. Do you know if EncorePro v.1.8i Release 2 (2007) would be a newer or older verssion than v.1.8.49?

Banned
Not sure,

The reports print the full version # at the bottom.

If you just purchased it I am guessing it will be a later sub version than 49 - Dllfo has a later version (I see this on his reports that I review for him) so I know mine is older than his but only by a few numbers).

His runs on Vista - mine on XP

DSM

#2 just noticed Dave's version is 1.8.65 (see his post above)
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Post by dsm » Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:12 pm

I found this power point presentation here in Australia that provides some helpful info on which type of Bipap is best suited to what type of sleep disorder.

Worth the read.

http://www.cpapaustralia.com.au/media_f ... ntatio.pdf

DSM

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Post by -SWS » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:16 pm

dsm wrote:I found this power point presentation here in Australia that provides some helpful info on which type of Bipap is best suited to what type of sleep disorder.

Worth the read.

http://www.cpapaustralia.com.au/media_f ... ntatio.pdf
Thanks, DSM. Great find.

A couple great key points of clarification that I found in that presentation:
Respironics BiPAP AutoSV Presentation wrote:Indications for Use- To provide non-invasive ventilatory support to patients for the primary treatment of Obstructive Sleep Disordered Breathing with secondary Central Sleep Apnea and/or Cheyne Stokes Respiration (CSR).
Note what's primary and what's secondary in Respironics' targeted pathologies. I believe these constitute the reverse case of what Resmed targets as primary and secondary (coexisting) pathologies with their Adapt SV machine.

Respironics BiPAP AutoSV Presentation wrote:BiPAP® autoSV™ treats the obstructive component of
SDB with a clinician adjustable CPAP or BiPAP pressure.

BiPAP® autoSV™ treats the central component of SDB
with a timed back up rate (automatic or fixed).

BiPAP® autoSV™ treats the Periodic Breathing by:
– Normalizing ventilation by AUTOmatically adjusting
Servo Ventilation
(pressure support).
I believe this is slightly different than the Resmed SV approach, which will adjust PS in response to more central dysregulation types than just periodic breathing.

Doug, based on what you described---by the way of PS periodically and regularly fluctuating all the way up to IPAP max throughout the night---and based on how well that approach makes you feel... It sounds as if you may be experiencing periodic breathing intermixed with your OSA. And that would explain why you felt sub par using CPAP or APAP, but felt much better using the BiPAP AutoSV. That Respironics algorithm is very well-targeted for an OSA patient who also experiences periodic breathing.

In short I think you may have found your magic pill, my friend! But you also need to make sure that you are not a transitional case of cardiac-related CSR. I would recommend reporting your findings to your doctor and have her/him give you a good cardiovascular workup if you haven't had one recently---just to be on the safe side.

I think it's great that you found a machine that works well for you! I am one happy friend to say the least!


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Post by Banned » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:49 pm

-SWS wrote: A couple great key points of clarification that I found in that presentation:

Indications for Use- To provide non-invasive ventilatory support to patients for the primary treatment of Obstructive Sleep Disordered Breathing with secondary Central Sleep Apnea and/or Cheyne Stokes Respiration (CSR). Note what's primary and what's secondary in Respironics' targeted pathologies. I believe these constitute the reverse case of what Resmed targets as primary and secondary (coexisting) pathologies with their Adapt SV machine.

BiPAP® autoSV™ treats the Periodic Breathing by: – Normalizing ventilation by AUTOmatically adjusting Servo Ventilation (pressure support). I believe this is slightly different than the Resmed SV approach, which will adjust PS in response to more central dysregulation types than just periodic breathing.

That Respironics algorithm is very well-targeted for an OSA patient who also experiences periodic breathing.

In short I think you may have found your magic pill, my friend! But you also need to make sure that you are not a transitional case of cardiac-related CSR. I would recommend reporting your findings to your doctor and have her/him give you a good cardiovascular workup if you haven't had one recently---just to be on the safe side.
SWS,

Nicely articulated thoughts on the comparison of the BiPAP Auto SV and Adapy SV.

When you suggest dsm have a cardiovascular work-up to assure he is not a transitional case of cardiac-related Cheyne-Stokes Respiration (CSR-CSA), are you suggesting that the Adapt SV might be better suited, if such was the case?

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AVAPS: PC AVAPS, EPAP 15, IPAP Min 19, IPAP Max 25, Vt 520ml, BPM 10, Ti 1.8sec, RT 2 (Garage)
BiPAP Auto SV: EPAP 9, IPAP Min 14, IPAP Max 25, BPM 10, Ti 2sec, RT 2 (Travel Machine)
VPAP Adapt SV: EEP 10.4, Min PS 4.4 (Every Day)
Mask: Quattro

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Post by dsm » Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:13 am

SWS,

Thanks for the comments & yes I agree. I have seen a few examples of PB showing up in the Bipap SV charts.

I had a stress ECG a couple of years ago & came out of it very well. But, at the ages we are at, these need to be repeated.

I will go back to my RT I am certain he will be interested (mostly in the fee )

Cheers Doug

xPAP and Quattro std mask (plus a pad-a-cheek anti-leak strap)

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Post by dsm » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:04 am

-SWS wrote:
BiPAP® autoSV™ Frequently Asked Questions wrote:Question-Does the BiPAP autoSV operate like an Auto CPAP or Auto Bi-level device for treating obstructive events?

Answer- No – The device does not have an auto-titrating algorithm to alleviate obstructive events. The innovative algorithm was designed to treat complex apnea and periodic breathing. The obstructive component of SDB is treated utilizing a clinician adjustable CPAP or BiPAP pressure level.
So just what is an "obstructive component" to sleep disordered breathing (SDB)? In short, any combination of these: 1) obstructive apneas, 2) obstructive hypopneas, 3) obstructive flow limitations, and/or 4) snoring. These are the SDB issues sometimes referred to as the "plumbing" or "airway conduit" type problems.

By contrast central SDB issues are sometimes referred to as "electrical signal" problems. They can include central apneas, central hypopneas, central hypoventilation , periodic breathing, and central hyperventiation. These central issues are the breathing problems that Servo Ventilation employs a fluctuating PS to automatically treat.

Both SV manufacturers ask that obstructive SDB components be manually titrated or addressed so that Servo Ventilation's fluctuating PS can specifically address the central components of SDB.

Hope that explanation helps newcomers!
.
xPAP and Quattro std mask (plus a pad-a-cheek anti-leak strap)