Very first FF mask: Any suggestions?

Fredman · Post by **Fredman** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:40 am

I tried the Mirage FF mask and it leaked too much and shot out air straight out at my wife...

Den, sorry about that it was the Mirage Quattro Full Face mask by ResMed.

Wulfman · Post by **Wulfman** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:48 am

Fred,

The angle of air from the UMFF and the Quattro are nearly the same.....upwards.
I'm not sure how your wife could get hit with the air from the Quattro, unless you have your head angled downward (chin closer to chest).

I try to tilt my head backwards (a little) for another reason.....and that is so I will be able to keep my airway in a straighter line to minimize "positional" apneas and hypopneas.

Den

Fredman · Post by **Fredman** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:00 pm

My wife is one of those that like to sleep up close to the headboard, and I am generally sleeping lower in the bed, and I tend to tilt my head backwards...so then that makes sense. I thought for sure it was shooting straight out. Anyways I couldn't get it to seal, even when I clamped it down tight.

I have the same style of nasal mask so I am familiar how to fit the Activa, which you don't crank those down tight. I like the Activa because of the bellows/vacuum effect. The mask stays in place nicely with very little leakage if any. So I thought this Mirage Quattro FF would be good.

Maybe a FF mask is not necessary, but on the days I am stuffed up from sinuses or a cold, it would seem to be a good idea.

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): mirage, activa, seal

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): mirage, activa, seal

Wulfman · Post by **Wulfman** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:24 pm

Fredman wrote: My wife is one of those that like to sleep up close to the headboard, and I am generally sleeping lower in the bed, and I tend to tilt my head backwards...so then that makes sense. I thought for sure it was shooting straight out. Anyways I couldn't get it to seal, even when I clamped it down tight.

I have the same style of nasal mask so I am familiar how to fit the Activa, which you don't crank those down tight. I like the Activa because of the bellows/vacuum effect. The mask stays in place nicely with very little leakage if any. So I thought this Mirage Quattro FF would be good.

Maybe a FF mask is not necessary, but on the days I am stuffed up from sinuses or a cold, it would seem to be a good idea.

Don't know what your pressure is, but I can wear my Quattro even looser than the UMFF......my pressure setting is 12 cm.

I guess that's why there are so MANY masks on the market.....everybody's situations and facial structures are different.

Den

Rastaman · Post by **Rastaman** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:51 am

I'm still using my Mirage Activa until the FF arrives. I'll probably test out the FF when it arrives early next week. Got a question though: How long will you typically keep your masks? Permanently? 6 months? A year? I have a few that I wore 6 months and put back in their cases. This last mask ended up being a shallow and I usually use a regular.

However, using the regular older one last night I noticed it leaking a lot. I don't know why. Sometimes tightening it down helps. Other times it's the problem. It's just weird. It's probably just the shape of my face. I try to wash the part of the mask that touches my face the most. It gives it a better seal when leak rates get higher and higher....and they tend to do that over time.

xyz · Post by **xyz** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:18 pm

> How long will you typically keep your masks?

You have to make a distinction between the mask (the big plastic part) and the cushion (the silicone interface between the mask and your face).

> using the regular older one last night I noticed it leaking a lot.

An old cushion loses its "spring", which results in leaks. The cushion should be replaced at least every two months to maintain that spring. Medicare, and many commercial insurance plans, allow the cushion to be replaced every month. More often is better than less often.

Wulfman · Post by **Wulfman** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:02 pm

Rastaman wrote:I'm still using my Mirage Activa until the FF arrives. I'll probably test out the FF when it arrives early next week. Got a question though: How long will you typically keep your masks? Permanently? 6 months? A year? I have a few that I wore 6 months and put back in their cases. This last mask ended up being a shallow and I usually use a regular.

However, using the regular older one last night I noticed it leaking a lot. I don't know why. Sometimes tightening it down helps. Other times it's the problem. It's just weird. It's probably just the shape of my face. I try to wash the part of the mask that touches my face the most. It gives it a better seal when leak rates get higher and higher....and they tend to do that over time.

I'm currently using the very same mask (including original seals) that I started out with nearly three years ago. It hasn't been "continuous" as I tried a Comfortfull 2 for three nights, a few months worth of swapping with another UMFF I've been breaking in and some amount of time with a Quattro.
I don't know how long the original seals will last (I have a considerable number of replacements, too.) but I'm amazed at how low some of my nightly leak rates are from a mask with this many nights of use. And, it just seems to get more comfortable as time goes on.

Den

pjwalman · Post by **pjwalman** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:03 pm

What is the Teflon tape fix on the elbow of the Quattro? I'm just a little past one week into CPAP use, have about a 35% leak rate with the Quattro. If I do the Teflon tape trick, will I get a better result from the mask?

And, BTW, as to the weird sizing, even though the sleep lab recommended a medium Quattro for me and that was the prescription, the DME tech determined I should have a small when he measured me. However, that small mask beat the crap out of the bridge of my nose which felt actually bruised in addition to being a lovely bright red hue , so I traded it out for a medium at my one-week visit and have had much better luck with it since the top of the mask now hits more in the flat part above the bridge of my nose. Just FYI that maybe the sizing chart doesn't always pan out for everybody.

And as to leakage of *my* Quattro anyway, I normally do pretty well with it other than the random rough switch from side to side when I kind of knock it off its mooring , but invariably, when I roll on to my back and move my chin in the slightest, I start feeling little bursts of air shooting out. Maybe it's just my odd anatomy and thank goodness I don't spend a lot of time on my back, but I'm not sure it's the best FF mask for a back sleeper if that is the experience of people other than just me.

Good luck!!

Peggy

xyz · Post by **xyz** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:05 pm

> What is the Teflon tape fix on the elbow of the Quattro?

There is an "L" shaped piece that on one end connects to the mask and on the other end to the hose. Go to the hardware store and get a roll of teflon tape. It's used to cover _pipe threads_. It's around 1/4 " wide and very thin. Ask a clerk for help if you're not sure. Put four full turns on the hose end of that piece. Pull it tight while you are winding it on.

> If I do the Teflon tape trick, will I get a better result from the mask?

Yes. I plot my data and it showed an immediate drop in average leak rate. Remember that masks are designed to leak some.

> I'm not sure it's the best FF mask for a back sleeper

Sleeping on the back results in more collapse of the airway, so it's best to sleep on your sides as much as possible. So this shouldn't be a problem.

But when I'm still awake, I notice that when I roll on my back there's no "interference" between the pillow and the mask like there sometimes is when you're on your side, so I would think that would mean _less_ leak when you're on your back. I think that this all comes down to adjustment. You have to keep adjusting the headgear until it's just right.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:50 am

I tried the UMFF for less than a week now. I tried it the first night and took it off fairly quickly. It seemed to leak quite easily and require tightening in much greater amounts than my Mirage Activa that I've used for 2 years now. Also, the sensation of having air pushed through my mouth was strange and seemed to offset the mask pressure over and over again. This was attempting to breath through my mouth.

The next time I tried it (not the next night) was last night. I had to really tighten it down to stop the leaks. They would appear very loudly and make the mask make a loud noise. The Activa usually doesn't leak like that. It's leaking to whatever extent but I can't TELL. With the UMFF it's blatantly leaking where I can hear it.

I woke up about 5:30am feeling terrible. The mask was off. This has happened before with Activa but it's rare. And of course right of the bat with the UMFF. This was the first night I got close to sleeping all night with the thing. But truth be told I can't take the mask that tight to avoid the leaks.

I kind've felt that the medium standard might've been a little too big for my face...just a bit. It's could've been just right too. Hard to say. But the head cushions touched my hair and not my forehead like the activa does. Perhaps, it's all just the shape of my face as this mask appears to work well for others. Perhaps more experimentation would've worked out.

I tried breathing through my nose btw as I usually do with the Activa. My wife thinks she saw the mask on about 2am. So, maybe my jaw was relaxing between 3 and 5 am. Another problem is my humidifier isn't integrated on my PG GK 420E....and the machine doesn't have an auto-off feature either. So, the machine was still running after however many hours since the mask had been taken off. (I assume taken off by me in my sleep)
My S8 Autoset Vantage doesn't have either of those two issues. If the mask comes off the unit goes off and saves my water, etc.

I'm glad I bought the return insurance through cpap.com I've boxed this little puppy back up and I'm returning it today or tomorrow to a UPS location for return. I'm open to the idea of trying a new mask still. But at this point it's probably going to be a nasal. I may wake up with dry mouth semi-regularly but at least I feel good in the morning and that's what's it's all about. (As opposed to leak rates)

Sideswiper · Post by **Sideswiper** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:28 am

Currently I'm using a F&P HC431. My software is showing that I'm pretty much spending the whole night in Large Leak, about double what the leak rate on this chart says (http://www.internetage.com/cpapinfo/leak-rates-1.html)... though my AHI is down to 1.

The leak occurs under my chin (I think the F&P HC 431 is the only mask that goes under the chin). If I tighten the bottom straps too much, it hurts in the back right below the base of my skull. Having it just a hair shy of where it hurts... well apparently it leaks a lot in the night.

Anyways I guess I need to talk with the DME about what my options are about replacing the mask.

It sounds like these are the three most popular FF masks:

Respironics ComfortGel Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
https://www.cpap.com/productpage/1802
Resmed Ultra Mirage Full Face Mask with Headgear
https://www.cpap.com/productpage/resmed ... dgear.html
Resmed Mirage Quattro Full Face Mask with Headgear
https://www.cpap.com/productpage/resmed ... dgear.html

Any others I should be interested in trying?

Rastaman · Post by **Rastaman** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:25 pm

Are you saying I should expect a 35.8 l/s rate for the Mirage Activa at a 13 cm pressure average? Wow! I had no idea that the leak rate was that calculated, known, expected, etc.

I guess you could have an even higher leak rate. I seam to have about appropriate and sometimes lower than with that nasal mask.

I'll have to keep this chart in mind when selecting masks. Thanks.

Goofproof · Post by **Goofproof** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:11 pm

Sideswiper wrote:Currently I'm using a F&P HC431. My software is showing that I'm pretty much spending the whole night in Large Leak, about double what the leak rate on this chart says (http://www.internetage.com/cpapinfo/leak-rates-1.html)... though my AHI is down to 1.

The leak occurs under my chin (I think the F&P HC 431 is the only mask that goes under the chin). If I tighten the bottom straps too much, it hurts in the back right below the base of my skull. Having it just a hair shy of where it hurts... well apparently it leaks a lot in the night.

Anyways I guess I need to talk with the DME about what my options are about replacing the mask.

It sounds like these are the three most popular FF masks:

Respironics ComfortGel Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
https://www.cpap.com/productpage/1802
Resmed Ultra Mirage Full Face Mask with Headgear
https://www.cpap.com/productpage/resmed ... dgear.html
Resmed Mirage Quattro Full Face Mask with Headgear
https://www.cpap.com/productpage/resmed ... dgear.html

Any others I should be interested in trying?

When you have excessive leaks, your data can be flawed and useless. Jim

cflame1 · Post by **cflame1** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:16 am

Sideswiper wrote:Currently I'm using a F&P HC431. My software is showing that I'm pretty much spending the whole night in Large Leak, about double what the leak rate on this chart says (http://www.internetage.com/cpapinfo/leak-rates-1.html)... though my AHI is down to 1.

The leak occurs under my chin (I think the F&P HC 431 is the only mask that goes under the chin). If I tighten the bottom straps too much, it hurts in the back right below the base of my skull. Having it just a hair shy of where it hurts... well apparently it leaks a lot in the night.

Anyways I guess I need to talk with the DME about what my options are about replacing the mask.

It sounds like these are the three most popular FF masks:

Respironics ComfortGel Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
https://www.cpap.com/productpage/1802
Resmed Ultra Mirage Full Face Mask with Headgear
https://www.cpap.com/productpage/resmed ... dgear.html
Resmed Mirage Quattro Full Face Mask with Headgear
https://www.cpap.com/productpage/resmed ... dgear.html

Any others I should be interested in trying?

The ComfortGel is not a Full Face mask. Won't help anything with mouth breathing!