Edema w/CPAP Therapy

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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GumbyCT
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Post by GumbyCT » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:28 pm

TossinNTurnin wrote:...what good do all the calls do if he hasn't explained to you why he doesn't believe in OSA or CPAP or whatever?
In all fairness, I don't remember ever asking him why? or what he believes in? After all when we talk - it is usually about ME!!

I still remember the 1st time we met - maybe 4-5 months After my brain aneurysm had ruptured - that nite I sought treatment at the VA ER at about 2am.

I had not been treated there routinely before this - he walked out to the VA lobby to greet me. As we were walking back to his office he said to me - "well you certainly look a lot better than the last time you were here". I asked him - "were you there too"?

You see I have absolutely no recall of that nite or the next 6-8 weeks. He said no I was just reading your history report. I am told the medics were standing by me with the paddles as I lay unresponsive on the table awaiting transport to a facility where they could treat me.

Boy did I digress. I think the point I was trying to make is - if I can remember, I will ask him when I see him again.


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GumbyCT
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Post by GumbyCT » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:40 pm

Thank you for finding that Moby - Right on time!!!

Yes Bait - I am interested in that diet - not sure I can follow it but def. interested. Glad You passed too.
Moby wrote:here is the post I was looking for
nightingale wrote:RE: Subject:CPAP side effects
Follow-Up posted by Gregory Harper, RRT, RCP (gharper@erols.com) on 9:8:27 8/23/97
Follow-Up: Hello Jean. The use of CPAP can decrease the amount of urine that you produce with a consequent increase in water retention and body weight. ... Consider for a moment that your body in an enclosed fluid system with the heart acting as a pump. The left side of the heart pumps blood (fluid) to the entire body and back to the right side of the heart. The right side of the heart pumps blood through the lungs to the left side of the heart. It is from this thread...


viewtopic.php?t=24141&start=0&postdays= ... ight=edema

_________________
Humidifier: HC150 Heated Humidifier With Hose, 2 Chambers and Stand
Additional Comments: New users can't remember they can't remember YET!
BeganCPAP31Jan2007;AHI<0.5
I have no doubt, how I sleep affects every waking moment.
I am making progress-NOW I remember that I can't remember
;)
If this isn’t rocket science why are there so many spaceshots?
Be your own healthcare advocate!

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allen476
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Post by allen476 » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:37 pm

Gumby,

I found this in my journey for the answer to another question. I hope you find it helpful.

http://www.pulmonaryreviews.com/dec00/p ... edema.html

Allen

toddo1966

Re: Edema w/CPAP Therapy

Post by toddo1966 » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:58 am

I am going to see my Sleep doctoor today because I am relatively certain that CPAP has caused edema in my Ankles and Hands. I've been looking for someone else who may have experienced this effect. Thank you all for posting. My hands are swelled where I can barely make a fist. Can any of you who are experiencing this tell me what your pressure setting. Mine is high at 17.

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Marietjie
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Re: Edema w/CPAP Therapy

Post by Marietjie » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:53 am

Hi there,Gumby....a while ago I also posted the same topic....edema/Cpap....and many kind members gave me good advice. I also discuss my therapy 'problems' with my husband and what we realize is that this therapy continously needs 'fine tuning'!!! Also the settings don't stay the same - winter settings differ from summer settings.
This is how I do my settings to prevent EDEMA... Summer settings:...humidifier set on 1 (that is the minimum heat) and I also put less water in. (half) It's funny - when I fill to the maximum mark - I have more Edema! I suppose - more water in humidifier the more water your body gets. I tried passover mode (for summer) but then I wake up with a very sore throat, watery eyes, etc. (seems to me one definitely needs a bit of heat - even in summer).
Then I did another thing - I reduced the pressure - with .5cm

Winter settings: Set humidifier on 1 and a half - fill to the max - pressures setting up with .5cm
All I can say is that my EDEMA (ankles) is almost gone. Now I know to 'tune' my humidifier and cpap according to the season!!!

(I also read the post: Gregory Harper!!!
Good day - do your tuning that will fit your body ! ! ! - Good Luck ! - Marietjie
Best among people are those who benefit mankind

Fafner
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Re: Edema w/CPAP Therapy

Post by Fafner » Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:02 pm

I was surprised to see this topic appear. I had missed it the first time around, but immediately resonated with it because my ankle edema has definately been more pronounced since starting CPAP therapy in August '08. At the same time, I have stopped the usual at least once a night trip to the bathroom which my doctor praised as a sign of effective therapy. The connection seems to be obvious. I will bring this to my doctor's attention and see how this and my blood pressure meds may be creating the increased swelling.

fafner

split_city
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Re: Edema w/CPAP Therapy

Post by split_city » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:27 pm

I recall reading somewhere that CPAP treatment reduces edema from around the neck. Perhaps this simply results in a redistribution of fluid to other parts of the body e.g. feet/ankles.

Here are a few abstracts looking at the interaction between fluid and upper airway function/OSA:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1843 ... d_RVDocSum

"We previously showed that rostral fluid displacement by lower body positive pressure (LBPP) narrows the
upper airway (UA) and increases UA resistance, but effects on UA collapsibility remained unknown. To
test if LBPP increases UA collapsibility, 13 healthy men were randomized into a control or LBPP arm then
crossed over into the other arm with a 30-min washout in between. LBPP was applied by inflating antishock
trousers wrapped around both legs to 40mmHg. UA collapsibility was assessed by determining UA
critical closing pressure (Pcrit) during application of different negative airway pressures. Pcrit and leg fluid
volumewere measured at baseline and after 5 min during both periods. LBPP caused a significant increase
in Pcrit associated with a reduction in leg fluid volume. We conclude that rostral fluid displacement by
LBPP increases UA collapsibility in healthy men, suggesting that fluid shift into the neck could increase
UA collapsibility during sleep and thereby predispose patients with fluid overload states to obstructive
sleep apnea."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1901 ... d_RVDocSum

"RATIONALE: The cause of increased pharyngeal collapsibility in patients with obstructive sleep apnea (OSA) is incompletely understood. In awake healthy subjects, we showed that fluid displacement from the legs into the neck induced by lower body positive pressure reduces upper airway size and increases its collapsibility. Prolonged sitting leads to dependent fluid accumulation in the legs. OBJECTIVES: To test the hypotheses that the apnea-hypopnea index (AHI) during sleep will be related to the amount of fluid spontaneously displaced from the legs overnight, and that this will, in turn, be related to the time spent sitting the previous day. METHODS: In 23 non-obese healthy men refereed for sleep studies for suspected OSA, we assessed the changes in leg fluid volume and in neck circumference from the beginning to the end of the night, and the time spent sitting during the previous day. RESULTS: The overnight change in leg fluid volume correlated strongly with the AHI (r = -0.773, p<0.001), the change in neck circumference (r = -0.792, p<0.001) and the time spent sitting (r = -0.588, p=0.003). Multivariate analysis showed that the only significant independent correlates of the AHI were the overnight changes in leg fluid volume and neck circumference which, together, explained 68% of the variability in the AHI among subjects. CONCLUSIONS: These novel findings suggest that overnight rostral fluid displacement from the legs, related to prolonged sitting, may play a previously unrecognized role in the pathogenesis of OSA in non-obese men that is independent of body weight."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1900 ... d_RVDocSum

"Fluid shift from the legs to the neck induced by lower body positive pressure (LBPP) increases upper airway (UA) collapsibility in healthy men. Rostral fluid displacement during recumbency may therefore contribute to the pathogenesis of obstructive sleep apnea (OSA). There is a higher prevalence of OSA in men than in women. We therefore hypothesized that UA collapsibility increases more in men in response to rostral fluid displacement than in women. UA collapsibility was assessed in healthy, non-obese men and women while awake by determining UA critical closing pressure (Pcrit) during application of different suction pressures to the UA. Subjects were randomized to 5-minute control or LBPP arms after which they crossed-over into the other arm following a 30-minute washout. LBPP was applied by inflating anti-shock trousers wrapped around both legs to 40 mmHg. Pcrit, leg fluid volume, and neck circumference were measured at baseline and after 5 minutes of both control and LBPP periods. LBPP caused a decrease in leg fluid volume and an increase in neck circumference that did not differ between men and women. However, compared to the control period, LBPP induced a much greater increase in Pcrit in men than in women (7.2 +/- 1.8 vs. 2.0 +/- 1.5 cm H2O, P = 0.035). We conclude that rostral fluid displacement by LBPP increases UA collapsibility more in healthy, non-obese men than in women. This may be one mechanism contributing to the higher prevalence of OSA in men than in women."

-SWS
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Re: Edema w/CPAP Therapy

Post by -SWS » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:42 pm

Well, there seems to be a relationship between lower extremity edema and CPAP/BiPAP use, but the full article is unfortunately not offered for free:
D . Choy , M . Jacobson , R . Chervin wrote:Within 3 days of CPAP, the patients weight had increased to 79.5 kg, with 2+ pitting edema of both lower extremities, waist size was 94 cm, the chest film..
Dependent edema and ascites associated with CPAP/BiPAP treatment of sleep apnea

stacia123
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Re:

Post by stacia123 » Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:27 pm

Moby wrote:here is the post I was looking for
nightingale wrote:RE: Subject:CPAP side effects
[SNIP]
I know this is an oooold post, but I think that what you quoted here is what my doctor was trying to tell me last month. He mentioned it was probably the cause of my headaches and should go away in time, which it did. It then returned as soon as my pressure was upped.

I love this thread, everyone has posted great stuff.

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dsm
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Re: Edema w/CPAP Therapy

Post by dsm » Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:14 pm

GumbyCT wrote:I know that OSA can cause frequent night time urination and while that has decreased after treatment, I now notice edema. Noticeable swelling in both ankles at bed time with increased joint stiffness when waking but none or few nite time potty breaks.

Anyone else have any experience with edema following CPAP therapy? Or know what causes it?

Thanks,
GumbyCT

Gumby

Interesting - just recently have been doing a lot of looking up articles on CO2 retention etc: in relation to OSA & am sure I read that swelling of the ankles or extremities is a side effect of a CO2 imbalance.

I'll see if I can find the info again

DSM

This is not the link I was looking for but it has some interesting info re anxiety & CO2
http://mindpub.com/PanicAttacksinCOPD_chapter4.htm
xPAP and Quattro std mask (plus a pad-a-cheek anti-leak strap)

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Julie
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Re: Edema w/CPAP Therapy

Post by Julie » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:37 pm

Hi, I'd just like to point something out here that sometimes people don't think about (only smart MD's do ) and that is that at the time you are diagnosed with OSA, it may be an accompanying symptom (or even result of) other conditions which are just beginning to manifest in your body - getting older is SO much fun, isn't it? The point being that because we may learn first about the OSA, we then blame everything else on it, or the treatment, etc., but that may be getting the whole sequence backward, which is why I'm always pushing for people to see their MD's when new symptoms (like edema) show up. It's one thing for the MD to surmise - after having checked you out for thyroid problems, heart failure, hypertension, etc. - that Cpap (or OSA) is the root cause of your trouble, but another for you to decide that based on whatever you read here on the forum, try to 'fix' it by tweaking Cpap treatment, but don't bother to see a doctor first. It's so important to do that, and only if the doctor tells you everything else seems to be fine, then you might try different tips presented here to deal with symptoms, but don't ever assume those symptoms can be ignored, or played with by taking someone's advice on OSA treatment, or trying out recipes, etc., without first knowing for sure what the story is. Rant over