Naturopathic Medicine (and a few other questions)

Thanks for all these replies, your points of view are very helpful.

I am going to try my machine on straight CPAP tonight with the pressure at 9.5 and see if that helps. I'll be sure to post my results.

As for general practicioners, it's just so hard to find a good one. Finding any doctor who will really listen and take patients seriously seems so rare. For 5 years I went to different GPs complaining about how tired I was, and instead of doing anything beyond the basic blood work, they just gave me a bunch of different antidepressants.
I am worried that I will just get more runaround rather than actual help. But if any of you know of a good GP in the Salt Lake City, UT area, I'd love to hear about them!

The info about progesterone and cortisol is interesting. I have often wondered if I have some kind of imbalance with those hormones. Now to find a doctor who will actually test me for them, instead of trying to shove antidepressants down my throat.

Hey Amandalee,
I was going to a ND for about a year a couple years ago in conjunction with treatment for PTSD. It was not what I would consider a waste of time or effort as it was making me feel a bit better, but as Sharon said, it is VERY expensive. I was spending on the order of $300 a month on herbal and other remedies -- again, I'm not discounting it at all, because I do believe in alternative methods of treating our ailments -- the secret is finding which one works best for your particular body.
I finally had to stop due to the cost. I told the ND if it ever became covered by insurance I'd be back in a flash........Ain't gonna happen any time soon as near as I can tell.

Your numbers look pretty good. Heck lady, they're better than mine!!!!

I have had my APAP set in CPAP mode most of the time. I found my number (10) and got greedy and went to 11 -- which didn't improve anything, in fact made it worse. So now I'm at 9 trying to see if it works better than 10 -- I'm about half way through my own evaluation of that, but it looks like 10 is going to be my number.....I still only get an average of 2.8 out of that - only ever had one night less than 1, so.....
I just had a consult with my sleep doc. We spent 45 min., going over the treatment, philosophies etc., and she blessed my tweaking. I did go in armed to the teeth -- reports, data etc.....I still feel groggy in the mornings until I have my dose of caffeine, but I don't seem to want to sleep during the day.

Not to beat a dead horse and I think others have asked/suggested....Have you been tested for other conditions?? Heard ya about everything being blamed on the apnea, but there's gotta be a doc out there that will look beyond that!!!! It could be complex, but it could also be something very simple.....

Take care - keep at it!!! Good luck!!!!!
cheers
goose

PS - the shrink turned out to be a quack, so I'm working on the PTSD other ways.....

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): CPAP, APAP

Amandalee,

So sorry to hear you are still feeling so tired. I am another one who still hasn't achieved feeling rested, although my numbers look good. A few things to consider...

Did your sleep study show any limb movements that could be disrupting your sleep? Are you on any meds that list tiredness as a side effect (turns out 3 of mine do)? Or meds that can disrupt sleep stages?

My sleep doc is adamant that I need to consistently get to bed by around 10:00 to give myself the best chance at a good night's sleep. I've been reading about circadian rhythm, cortisol and other hormone levels, and the effects of light and diet on our sleep, particularly REM. Seems there is plenty we can do to help ourselves, and I'm learning and improving, but need to do better. All the sleep/wake hormones ebb and flow, and if we don't ride the waves our sleep will be out of sync and not restful.

Before you spend money, maybe some research could give you some clues to help yourself, but it's kinda hard to find the energy for all that when so tired. Sure hope you feel better soon.

Kathy

if your iron is low- cook with cast iron pans and take your iron supplement with OJ. it will help absorption. also make sure it is the digestible kind.

Thanks again for all the help.

I have been running my machine in CPAP mode with the pressure at 9.5. My numbers look about the same, and I feel pretty much the same.

hi amandalee
sorry you're not feeling better ....but it hasn't even been a week yet, has it? try giving it another week and after that maybe you should go ahead and bump it up to 10 for a couple, like den suggested?

wulfman said:

If you want to try it, I'd suggest trying it in single pressure mode of around 9 or 10......maybe a week of each at a time.

keep us 'posted' lol, no pun intended

Amanda,

There may be other "issues" at work here, too. And, depending on how long you've had this condition (and your age), the recovery time may be longer. In my case, the daytime sleepiness went away almost immediately, but the "recovery" with regard to the physical issues is still ongoing after 2 1/2 years.
Subtle changes and improvements in most areas.

Den

Hi Amanda

I have struggled with the question of allopathic docs or alternative docs for this or that ailment for years. I was raised in a medical family - dad an MD, mom a nurse. As an adult, I have had the good fortune to have great benefit from alternative practitioners in some areas, and more benefit in other areas from MDs. And....there are good ones and not so competent ones in both areas.

For example. I have not found any alternative general pain medication that is as quick and affective as ibuprophen/aspirin, or RX pain meds etc. But I find a Chinese herb combo, Bi Yan Pian much more effective dealing with my nasal congestion than any nasal spray with none of the rebound or side affects.

I find herbal sleep aids can help with relaxation but don't help me sleep as effectively as even OTC sleep meds. (I don't like RX sleep meds because they either knock me out too much or have unpleasant side effects.)

I find Rescue Remedy or 911 drops way more effective when I am anxious (I used to take it when I was first going to sleep - helped a lot) than any kind of RX anxiety meds - that had unpleasant side effects.

For me, most body structural stuff has been handled more effectively by a very good chiropractor and sometimes a cranial sacral therapist. A good cranial-sacral practioner can make a world of difference in a myriad of complaints - they work with the body pulses of the spinal fluid.

I go to the emergency room with anything broken, with chest pains/arrhythmia, etc. For long term improvement of heart health and overall health, I go to alternative practitioners - with my various test reports in hand. I have found someone well trained and experienced in naturopathy, ayurvedic, & homeopathic medicine have often helped me more than a GP for general over-all health improvement.

Cost is definitely an issue if you have health insurance. If you have no health insurance, then I find it cheaper for alternative care - a .5-.75 hr appt can be in the range of $50-150, while MD rates are more in the range of $100-225 for 15-20 minutes.

Right now I go to an MD who is trained in classical homeopathy and a chiropractor who works with subtle adjustments and is also trained extensively in nutrition and functional medicine. I find their balanced perspective very informative. I have also learned a lot from Dr. Andrew Weil - an MD who has knowledge in various alternative fields and heads up medical training at Univ. of AZ.

I don't think it is a question of EITHER allopathic OR alternative medicine. I think it is a blending of multiple perspectives that is the direction we seem to be moving toward. I think there is still a ton to learn about sleep apnea in all fields of healthcare. My guess is that in another 10-20 years, the sleep apnea field will look different and we will know much more than we do now.

Sorting out the good from the bad in both alternative and mainstream approaches is not easy. There's lots of hogwash in mainstream medicine. Witness the misinformation people have gotten in their SDB treatment from all manner of mainstream medical people. Doctors are not well trained in science. They are trained to believe certain things and listen to the drug companies way too much.

However, I do go to a number of mainstream doctors for various conditions. Before I do what they tell me I do a TON of research. All these doctors but one missed my OSA, even when I asked for a sleep study. I went to a mainstream doctor about bone density and he pooh-poohed calcium, magnesium, and vitamin D. Just take fosamax and your bones will be strong, he said. He teaches at a highly regarded medical school and is associated with a hospital that is one of the best around. He tried to discourage my use of supplements known to help preserve bone density.

One of the MD's I go to practices complementary medicine. He's my GP. He spends a lot of time with me and listens. He also knows a lot about supplements. I've have very good luck with supplements prior to going to him. I wanted to have a doctor who knew more than I did about supplements and didn't try to thwart my efforts to use them. I also wanted someone who would run tests to make sure I was using some of them correctly. He's the one who insisted I have a sleep study. I say insisted because the previous doctor convinced me I could not have sleep apnea and I believed him. I have a number of problems that can and are being treated with supplements. I get wonderful results for osteoarthritis with the supplements I use. I started with severe pain about 15 years ago. I started the supplements then and am glad I did. As long as I take them, I have virtually no arthritis pain. At my age my mother was headed for knee surgery. I tried a number of statin drugs and had side effects. Different ones, different doses, and they all caused side effects that were very bad. Now, with diet, fiber, exercise, and supplements, I can keep my cholesterol at a decent level. No other doctor supports my doing this in the way my complementary medicine doctor does. He practices the kind of medicine Andrew Weil, MD does.

I do use mainstream prescription drugs for several conditions, including acid reflux. I'm very glad to have these medications. I use both supplements and mainstream prescriptions drugs with caution, however. Supplements are not all one thing. I would be careful of herbs, for instance. I rarely take them. I did take a Chinese herb years ago (with the blessing of my D.O. at the time). The alternative was a medication that was known to have some really, really terrible side effects. Luckily the herb worked.

All that said, naturopathy is the type of medicine I would hesitate to spend my time or money on. I have seen naturopaths in the past and was never very impressed. I'm not a big fan of homeopathy, which is what they advocated. It doesn't make logical sense to me and there are no studies.

I've been following with interest the posts of BarryKrakowMD. I had unresolved spontaneous arousals during my titration study (21/hr). I'm wondering if it's possible that my treatment, successful as it's been, is doing everything it should. I certainly feel light years better, but occasionally I have a day where I feel fabulous in a way I've never felt before. I suspect that this is when I have a great night's sleep. I have good readings for my AHI nearly every night, usually 1.0 or less if I wear the backpack to keep side sleeping. But I might still be having arousals that are interfering with my sleep architecture. This seems a likely guess to me.

Did you have a lot of spontaneous arousals during your sleep study? During your titration study? I think these are called RERA's on some sleep studies. If I were going to spend out of pocket money, I might want to track these down first if they were high in your case.

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): Titration, Prescription

Hi Amandalee,

In addition to the PM several days ago....one other thing...as far as looking for a Dr. that will actually listen and having your insurance pay.... see if you can find an Alternative or Complementary or Holistic clinic that is run by an MD.

There has seemed to be more of those opening up in my area. There are usually several practitioners within one group, and the MD can refer you to the one within the practice that they think you would benefit from. In my experience, my insurance has covered it, and they will check up front to make sure you are covered. I have found the one I go to, really takes the time to listen to me, and looks at the "whole person", not just a symptom or 2.

Again, like with any physician, sometimes you have to just get lucky in finding a good one, and one that's not just interested in making money and throwing prescription drugs with side effects at you.

Hope you are feeling somewhat better!

Gail

ApNoob wrote:However, "scientifically tested" is much better than time tested since "time testing" is known to be very supportive of all manner of flummery. Science is what we use to separate what really works from what merely seems to work. As to acupuncture, it does seem to have some effect on pain management however claims of "Chi", "meridians" and general efficacy beyond simple pain management are so much "time tested" bunk. However, at least acupuncture is relatively harmless as long as it is not used for a substitute for proper medical treatment of a health threatening condition.

I need to add my two cents here. Please take it in the spirit in which it's intended.

There are different schools of thought on this. My opinion is that the patient is doing a disservice to him/herself by limiting himself to only western medicine. I'm sorry if I offend you, but this is a hot-button for me. If something works, why not pursue it? (Other than our short-sighted insurance industry that won't cover eastern medicines...) There are plenty of western medications that we don't know why they work, but they are prescribed anyway. A legitimate course of treatment doesn't rely on knowing why it works. It breaks my heart that insurance doesn't recognize this fact.

...oh and keep in mind that acupuncture is based on Qi. Does that mean you believe acupuncture has no benefit beyond pain management?

Doug.

geoDoug wrote: ...oh and keep in mind that acupuncture is based on Qi. Does that mean you believe acupuncture has no benefit beyond pain management?

Doug.

Acupuncture is more than pain management. It can be use to treat high blood pressure for example. I have gone to TCM doctor recently for acupuncture session treatment of high blood pressure. It is interesting to know there are a few types of HBP, according to the doctor, my body is weak causing the HBP. Herbal medicine and sessions of acupuncture hopefully will cure my HBP problem. Acupuncture just one part of chinese medicine, there are also other methods.

I am a much believer in science but sometimes western medicine does not offer a solution or not so good method. For many years I have personally witness and also heard from others, when doctor say no hope or require surgery but cure by TCM. TCM does have it's limitation, it does not cure all sickness. TCM treatment can be slow, it may take sometime to see results.

For me, I will not wait until methods scientifically tested, if western medicine does not work, I will go for TCM. Living in Asia, I guess I am lucky to have access to both worlds.

I laugh at people who take science "to the bank".....In science, it seems, if you can't feel it, see it, or touch it then it cannot be real.
Eastern medicine has been working for a whole lot longer than western medicines -- and I agree that we should be using a mix of whatever works for us.......Calling acupuncture "time tested" bunk, is actually bunk in and of itself.....open thine eyes and ye shall see......

I love it when "science folks" tell me that what I'm discussing (whatever it is at the moment -- I can be out there a long way) defies the laws of physics so it can't happen.....
Ok. It defies the laws of physics as we understand them today. You don't know that tomorrow something is going to happen or a discovery made that is going to make Einstein and Hawking look like morons!!!!!

There are forces in the universe we don't understand and will never understand as long as we view them with our extremely narrow vision......

Sorry.....Couldn't help it......

cheers
goose

IMHO, the science behind conventional medicine is still spotty. Just because a treatment hasn't been tested with double blind studies doesn't mean it's not effective. It just means the research hasn't been done yet. Doctors are fond of saying "there's no evidence that X treatment is effective." This is often said in a way that suggests that X treatment is ineffective. I always follow with the question "Do you mean that sufficient research has been done and the treatment has been shown to be ineffective, or do you mean that no research has been done, so it may be effective, but we don't have the research showing it's effectiveness yet?" At this point the doctor looks surprised and usually mumbles something vague.

That brings us to the question of "evidence." There are various levels of evidence.

There is research evidence, but this doesn't mean something is "proven." It just means that there's support for a particular treatment. It may or may not work for someone of a different cultural background, gender, age, etc. However, I do pay attention to research. I don't throw it out just because it's sponsored by mainstream medicine. If I'm going to take a prescription drug I want a LOT of evidence about the treatment working and also about side effects.

Another kind of evidence is clinical evidence. If may doctors have used a treatment and it seems to work much of the time, I'd also accept this level of evidence, but not for a drug that might have dangerous side effects. If the treatment is benign and not wildly expensive, I'm inclined to try it based on clinical evidence. If it works for me, I especially accept this type of evidence.

When it comes to treatments that are safe (like many supplements), I'm inclined to try it for a while and see. I do a lot of checking first, to look for interactions, etc. Now someone is after the supplement companies. They say that supplements are not safe. There are very few reports (usually those are reported over and over). A safety problem usually arises when a person takes the supplement in the wrong way (like a whopping big dose) and a few times when there have been quality control problems. However, look at the number of people who take supplements and have adverse reactions vs the number who have them from prescription drugs and you will see that the drugs are killing people right and left compared to the supplements.

One of the evidence problems here is that the pharmaceutical mfgrs have frequently underreported or even suppressed evidence about adverse reactions to their medications. I could have taken Vioxx for my arthritis or I could have taken supplements. The supplements worked wonders, but the makers of Vioxx suppressed evidence about adverse effects, marketing it as a safe medication.

I do think you have to look at the source of the evidence and whether there are likely to be conflicts of interest.

IMHO, it's up to each of us to try to understand, as best we can, all the evidence about the treatments that are likely to help us. We are ill-equipped to do this, since we haven't been trained. But if we do this, and if we have docs we can talk to (a big if, I know) we are better able to make informed decisions.

amandalee
how are you doing?