Tap Water in your humidifier can kill you

loonlvr · Post by **loonlvr** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:03 pm

Well, if there was a probelm with humidifed water, then what happens with all the ppl drinking the waters, washing their hands with hot water, etc. Doesn't sound right.

Night Owl · Post by **Night Owl** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:58 pm

Might there be a difference between washing, rinsing etc, with "contaminated" tap water as opposed to using it in a heated humidifier? Would the constant low heat in the humidifier encourage bacterial growth in that small sample of tap water -- and then it's blown as a vapor directly into your airway ?

That's not to say that is what happened here, but it's a good heads-up for us. Thanks for the post.

Remembering back a few years, there was a dust up over just the cold air humidifiers and recently over shower heads that have a mist spray setting that might be problematic for health.... but not heated humidifiers. Tap water in the heated humidifer just leaves deposits.....

What a great discussion about all this -- Evidently from this discussion, there are no evildoers that can be blown from our humidifers .. If using distilled water makes life easier anyway, than I'll sign up with the "lazy" bunch who use it just for all the free time --

Mikesus · Post by **Mikesus** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:06 pm

How is Legionnaires' disease transmitted?
The transmission of Legionnaires' disease is not completely understood. The normal presence of Legionella in such environmental sites as water and soil is not automatically associated with an outbreak of the disease. It appears that the Legionella microbe, in order to produce the disease, must reach the lungs. Inhalation of small particles of contaminated water (aerosols) or soil seems to be the key. Drinking contaminated water, as opposed to breathing in contaminated aerosols, has not been associated with Legionnaires' disease. However, this possibility should not be entirely excluded.

loonlvr · Post by **loonlvr** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:09 pm

Thanks for the info. I had thought that it was similiar to other water borne diseases. Ever been to mexico? Doesn't take much to get the tijuana trots.

tomjax · Post by **tomjax** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:54 pm

This is a perfect examply of sensationalism combined with ignorance and causing pandemonium.

Legioneers disease can indeed be cause from the air condition condesate growing bugs.
It then may be sent thru the air in DROPLETS, not the humidity type that comes from a cpap humidifier.

Bugs may attach to droplets as in a cold air humidifier, but not from the humidifier water.

You could put every concievable pathogen it a humidifier and there would be NO danger of transmitting them and causing infection.
Just does not work this way folks.

Liam1965 · Post by **Liam1965** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:58 pm

tomjax wrote:You could put every concievable pathogen it a humidifier and there would be NO danger of transmitting them and causing infection.
Just does not work this way folks.

Perhaps so, but I strongly advise NOT adding "Dr. Jack's Anthrax Pick-Me-Up CPAP Additive".

Liam, concerned that terrorists have infiltrated his heated humidifier reservoir.

Mikesus · Post by **Mikesus** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:04 pm

Then How do you explain this?

Humidifier fever: A form of sick building syndrome that usually develops on Monday or the first workday of the week.

The hallmark of the disease is the sudden onset of fever. Other features may include muscle aches and pains and mild shortness of breath.

Humidifier fever can be caused by a number of different agents including amebas, bacteria, and fungi that may live in the moist environment of an humidifier.

Humidifier fever typically resolves once the patient is no longer exposed to the causative agent coming from the humidifier.

Link

People get Legionnaires’ disease from inhaling contaminated water particles

The Legionella bacterium is spread by the release of small droplets of contaminated water into the air from air conditioning cooling towers, showers, misters, humidifiers, etc. To cause illness, infected water droplets must be inhaled (breathed in) by a susceptible person. The disease is not spread from person to person.

Maryland Dept Of Health

And according to this article portable humidifiers have been responsible for Legionnaires.

Portable humidifiers have been responsible for cases of legionnaires' disease. They work by producing an aerosol via a high speed pump placed above a basin of water, and so create ideal conditions for Legionella growth. The Chartered Institution of Building Services Engineers (1987) recommends that such units be kept very clean, with daily washing and draining of the unit. Distilled water should be used in sensitive areas such as hospitals.

Link

Investigation of outbreaks of Legionnaires' disease have documented transmission of Legionella from contaminated cooling towers and evaporative condensers, showers, decorative fountains, humidifiers, respiratory therapy equipment, and whirlpool spas.

Link

No offense, but if you are going to make claims that it can't happen, back it up with data. It has happened before, and can happen in the way that it was described. If you chose not to believe that it can happen, fine, but please don't put opinion out as fact, it could cost someone their life...

LDuyer · Post by **LDuyer** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:09 pm

That's Maryland for you!

But it does make me worry. Better clean out that humidifier now!
Maryland might be wrong, and should back it up with data.

Still, I must do better.

Mikesus · Post by **Mikesus** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:18 pm

And New Jersey

Investigation of outbreaks of Legionnaires' disease have documented transmission of Legionella from contaminated cooling towers and evaporative condensers, showers, decorative fountains, humidifiers, respiratory therapy equipment, and whirlpool spas.

and Virginia

How is the organism spread?

The bacteria that cause legionellosis appear to be spread through the air when a spray of water is created by devices such as water taps, water-based humidifiers, room humidifiers, or old type cooling tower air conditioners.

Could keep going, but I think the point was made...

-SWS · Post by **-SWS** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:37 pm

Hmmm..... Quite a few states seem to be involved. I'm admittedly starting to suspect that this just may happen in the entire lower 48 states if not all 50. Wonder what the deal is with Puerto Rico...? They're not a state, yet they posess many characteristics similar to statehood.

Seriously, thanks for the info, Mike. Now I'm glad I'm one of the few rare birds who doesn't use CPAP humidification.

Mikesus · Post by **Mikesus** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:45 pm

-SWS wrote:Hmmm..... Quite a few states seem to be involved. I'm admittedly starting to suspect that this just may happen in the entire lower 48 states if not all 50. Wonder what the deal is with Puerto Rico...? They're not a state, yet they posess many characteristics similar to statehood.

Seriously, thanks for the info, Mike. Now I'm glad I'm one of the few rare birds who doesn't use CPAP humidification.

You are right, it is probably just an east coast thing...

I know there has been a lot of discussion about the size of the molecules not being able to carry bacteria, but that line of thought doesn't take into account bacteria becoming airborne from the airflowing past it.

If this case is proven (which is quite possible given the fact that water with the bacteria was used), I have a feeling that a certain manufacturer will rethink their current literature regarding humidification...

-SWS · Post by **-SWS** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:15 pm

Airborne bacteria is a good point. There may even be another non-airborne CPAP humidification transmission path:

Rhetorically: If the microbial pathogens can flourish in a stale humidifier tank of water, then might they also propagate along the "rainout drenched" lining of a CPAP hose? If they could thrive and propagate along a highly unlikely contiguous path of moisture in this manner, then droplets of rainout water rolling into the mask might also be a transmission path of infection. Seems theoretically possible, but much less likely than those cited cases of weeks/months-old stale water droplets being directly sprayed from a building's neglected humidification system, through the air, and into the path(s) of human respiration. Even those latter cases are probably as rare as lightening strikes. Still, if I used CPAP humidification I wouldn't take any chances at all. Then again I don't linger outside during lightening storms---especially on the golf course

LDuyer · Post by **LDuyer** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:20 pm

-SWS wrote: .... Wonder what the deal is with Puerto Rico...? They're not a state, yet they posess many characteristics similar to statehood.

This isn't OSA-related, and I know you meant that as a joke. But I had to laugh. The territories sure do operate like states. When I worked on FEMA maps for Flood Insurance, we mapped flood hazards for Puerto Rico and Guam, because they're eligible for Flood Insurance under the government program. It amazed me, and was fun working on those maps and daydreaming about tropical places!

But then again, considering those tsunamis, maybe I should daydream about snow skiing instead, huh?

Linda

tomjax · Post by **tomjax** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:15 pm

Mikesus wrote:
No offense, but if you are going to make claims that it can't happen, back it up with data. It has happened before, and can happen in the way that it was described. If you chose not to believe that it can happen, fine, but please don't put opinion out as fact, it could cost someone their life...
-----------
This is not a claim and has been covered thoroughly on a manufacturers site- will find if needed.

The distinction should be made between a humidifier such as a cool air one that we use in childrens rooms as well as the cooling towers that produce air droplets that the pathogens hitch a ride.
Molecular things such as odors can indeed escape in a cpap, but pathogens are not a concern. And it is unlikely, if not impossible for the to sprout wings and fly in the air passing over. Just does not work that way.

Please give me your data that it has happened before.

different story if you drink the water.
To those who may reply about the rainout that happens and why could the bugs not be there, it is simply that the rainout is the resuly of condensation
of vapor- not water particles. You could inhale or drink the rainout water that came from water that had the bugs and it still would not have any.
It could happen that any airborne pathogens that enter and somehow get thru the filter could be inhaled though.

-SWS · Post by **-SWS** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:28 pm

The highly unlikely rainout scenario would not entail pathogens riding the airborne molecules. The most conducive albeit highly unlikely scenario would entail rainout first lining the surfaces with moisture. Then pathogens propagating out of the humidifier tank, along the moist life-sustaining surfaces until the live pathogen(s) sat, waiting for a fast downhill ride (like an evil microbial hitchhiker) onto a rolling, condensated drop that just so happens to pass by. Don't think a surface-borne microbe can propagate from the water tank, upward along a moist hose surface, and to the gravity-assisted roll-down point in a mere night, though. With a CPAP machine way higher than head level, an over-filled water tank/level, a very long sleep session, extremely cold ambient air... who knows?

Probably happens with about the same frequency that new universes are born.

Tap Water in your humidifier can kill you

tap water a problem- NOT

Re: tap water a problem- NOT

humidifier danger

Rolling on a River...

Machine	Mask