Preliminary Data - Current project (exciting!)

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
split_city
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Post by split_city » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:42 am

Here's a snapshot showing the Pes calibrations I did in the "+20 peak Pes" guy

Image

As I said before, his expiratory peak Pes was lower than +20cmH20 during his awake baseline breathing. I did notice that his FEV1(%predicted) was 78% and FVC(%predicted) was 75%. Slight obstruction perhaps. Anyways, pulmonary function variables tend to be a little lower than predicted in the obese though anyway??

The patient below had a FEV1 (87%predicted) and FVC (76% predicted)

He was crunching his abs as soon as he got off to sleep. Notice his peak Pga (>26cmH20) during expiratory efforts. Expiratory Pes peaked at 17-20cmH20 while it was around 14cmH20 when Pga swings were going in the "normal" fashion. Pes at FRC was ~7-9cmH20.

Image

As I said before, Pga was unavailable for the other "+20cmH20 peak Pes" guy. Perhaps he was crunching his abs on a rather continuous basis as well?? Unlike the breathing from the guy above, the original +20 peak Pes guy never really had a patent airway.

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SleeplessInOhio
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Hey Split...

Post by SleeplessInOhio » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:49 am

How are you measuring the lung volumes and what are the ages of your subjects?
“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.” Stephen Hawking

split_city
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Re: Hey Split...

Post by split_city » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:53 am

SleeplessInOhio wrote:How are you measuring the lung volumes and what are the ages of your subjects?
We are measuring changes in lung volume via magnetometers. We are unable to measure absolute lung volume.

The average age of the patients I have studied so far is 47+/-2.8years

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SleeplessInOhio
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Couldn't You....

Post by SleeplessInOhio » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:03 am

....run them on a FF mask with 3CM of CPAP and at least monitor the trend of tidal volume?

“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.” Stephen Hawking

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StillAnotherGuest
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Is This "No Rules" NPSG?

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:42 am

split_city wrote:Here's a snapshot showing the Pes calibrations I did in the "+20 peak Pes" guy
Are those the DC cals or the biocals? If biocals, what was the procedure to elicit the peak values?
split_city wrote:I did notice that his FEV1(%predicted) was 78% and FVC(%predicted) was 75%. Slight obstruction perhaps.
Not enough info there to determine that.
split_city wrote: Anyways, pulmonary function variables tend to be a little lower than predicted in the obese though anyway??
That question is unclear to me.
split_city wrote:The patient below had etc. etc....
Physiologically, this example makes more sense. In evaluating events and values aside, Pes positive is decreased during periods of relatively stable breathing and event onset, and increased during breakthru and recovery. Pes negative decreases progressively during event and then becomes more positive during relatively stable breathing.

Image

As opposed to the initial patient, where Pes negative becomes less negative during the actual event and simply returns to baseline. Further, the constant elevation in Pes positive is not a normal phenomenon, nor representative of typical OSA or UARS patients.

Image

Now, if you're telling me that there's
split_city wrote:Slight obstruction perhaps.
or
split_city wrote:the original +20 peak Pes guy never really had a patent airway.
well then that's different.
split_city wrote:
StillAnotherGuest wrote:
split_city wrote:Here is a study comparing pleural pressure with Pes in humans

Mead et al (1959) Journal of Applied Physiology 14(1): 81-83

Upright
Mean pleural pressure at end-expiration was -5.1cmH20
Mean esophageal pressure at end-expiration was -4.8cmH20
Very impressive, but for the most part, "upright" is not applicable in the sleep laboratory.
So? You didn't define posture in your original argument.
LOL! Got me on that one!

Speaking of which, did you do supine flowrates and FV loops during PFT?
SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

split_city
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Confusion reigns. Pes =Intrapulmonary P or Pes = Pleural P

Post by split_city » Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:39 am

StillAnotherGuest wrote:
split_city wrote:Here's a snapshot showing the Pes calibrations I did in the "+20 peak Pes" guy
Are those the DC cals or the biocals? If biocals, what was the procedure to elicit the peak values?
Pressure transducer was connected to a 10mL syringe and a manometer via a 3-way tap. The syringe was used to elicit both +ve and -ve pressure. Manometer readings were taken during generation of +ve and -ve pressure. Max and min pressures were saved into the file.
StillAnotherGuest wrote:
split_city wrote: The patient below had etc. etc....
Physiologically, this example makes more sense. In evaluating events and values aside, Pes positive is decreased during periods of relatively stable breathing and event onset, and increased during breakthru and recovery. Pes negative decreases progressively during event and then becomes more positive during relatively stable breathing.

Image

As opposed to the initial patient, where Pes negative becomes less negative during the actual event and simply returns to baseline. Further, the constant elevation in Pes positive is not a normal phenomenon, nor representative of typical OSA or UARS patients.

Image
Ok, I'll have a look through this patient's file to see what happened during his obstructive events in stage I/II sleep. I will see if this phenomenom was confined to SWS. I will also check other sections of his SWS.
StillAnotherGuest wrote:
split_city wrote:the original +20 peak Pes guy never really had a patent airway.
well then that's different.
I meant that he didn't really have a patent airway during his time in SWS. However, his airway didn't get as bad during SWS as it didn't during Stage I/II, when he had obstructive events. This was perhaps due to the increased GG activity seen during SWS.

StillAnotherGuest wrote:
split_city wrote:Here is a study comparing pleural pressure with Pes in humans

Mead et al (1959) Journal of Applied Physiology 14(1): 81-83

Upright
Mean pleural pressure at end-expiration was -5.1cmH20
Mean esophageal pressure at end-expiration was -4.8cmH20
StillAnotherGuest wrote:Very impressive, but for the most part, "upright" is not applicable in the sleep laboratory.
split_city wrote: So? You didn't define posture in your original argument.

LOL! Got me on that one!
I sure did! . While you were correct in stating that Pes is close to atmospheric pressure at FRC when an individual is in the supine position, Pes does not represent intrapulmonary pressure (as you stated). The upright data shows this.
StillAnotherGuest wrote:Speaking of which, did you do supine flowrates and FV loops during PFT?
No I didn't. PFTs were conducted in our respiratory lab. Only tests in the upright position can easily be performed

Now, are you going to attempt to answer a question I asked you a few posts back:
split_city wrote:Here's a question for you. FRC decreases in healthy-weight individuals when moving from an upright position to the supine position. This is partially due to mass loading on the abdomen, displacing the diaphragm cranially. If this is true, why is there little to no decrease in FRC in the obese population following the same postural transition?
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Last edited by split_city on Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

split_city
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Re: Couldn't You....

Post by split_city » Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:47 am

[quote="SleeplessInOhio"]....run them on a FF mask with 3CM of CPAP and at least monitor the trend of tidal volume?


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StillAnotherGuest
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SAG Does Not Play "Jeopardy" Either

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:53 am

split_city wrote:Now, are you going to attempt to answer a question I asked you a few posts back:
split_city wrote:Here's a question for you. FRC decreases in healthy-weight individuals when moving from an upright position to the supine position. This is partially due to mass loading on the abdomen, displacing the diaphragm cranially. If this is true, why is there little to no decrease in FRC in the obese population following the same postural transition?
No.
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

split_city
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Geez, no YouTube and no Jeopardy...Bingo anyone?

Post by split_city » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:05 am

StillAnotherGuest wrote:
split_city wrote:Now, are you going to attempt to answer a question I asked you a few posts back:
split_city wrote:Here's a question for you. FRC decreases in healthy-weight individuals when moving from an upright position to the supine position. This is partially due to mass loading on the abdomen, displacing the diaphragm cranially. If this is true, why is there little to no decrease in FRC in the obese population following the same postural transition?
No.
It's not often that I only get a single word response from you.

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StillAnotherGuest
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YOU Explain While SAG Reloads

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:04 am

split_city wrote:
StillAnotherGuest wrote:
split_city wrote:Now, are you going to attempt to answer a question I asked you a few posts back:
split_city wrote:Here's a question for you. FRC decreases in healthy-weight individuals when moving from an upright position to the supine position. This is partially due to mass loading on the abdomen, displacing the diaphragm cranially. If this is true, why is there little to no decrease in FRC in the obese population following the same postural transition?
No.
It's not often that I only get a single word response from you.
The objective of the written word (and for that matter, the spoken word as well) is not to generate text but generate idea.

OK, being a little more obvious, as a student of American History, SAG understands the strategic value of crouching behind a fieldstone fence with his musket while his opponent marches down the center of the road dressed up in a bright red uniform.

SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

split_city
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The trigger is cocked...waiting on you to say DRAW!

Post by split_city » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:30 pm

As promised, here's another snapshot from the original "+20cmH2O peak Pes" guy. However, this was taken earlier on in the night during lighter sleep.

Image

Unlike the original snapshot, minimum Pes became more -ve during obstructive events, while peak expiratory Pes increased.

Why do you think there's a difference between lighter sleep versus SWS in terms of his breathing? You obviously have to take my word on the staging but I can guarantee that the earlier snapshot was when he was in SWS. You can see physiological differences though compared to the snapshot below.

Greater flow limitation (during your so-called "baseline" breathing)
Increased inspiratory phasic GG activity
Obstructions in picture above

Image

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StillAnotherGuest
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Actually, It's The Hammer That's Cocked...

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:13 am

split_city header wrote:The trigger is cocked...waiting on you to say DRAW!
OK, hold on there Tex, I'm having a little trouble getting my musket out of the holster.
split_city wrote:
StillAnotherGuest wrote:
split_city wrote:Here's a snapshot showing the Pes calibrations I did in the "+20 peak Pes" guy
Are those the DC cals or the biocals? If biocals, what was the procedure to elicit the peak values?
Pressure transducer was connected to a 10mL syringe and a manometer via a 3-way tap. The syringe was used to elicit both +ve and -ve pressure. Manometer readings were taken during generation of +ve and -ve pressure. Max and min pressures were saved into the file.
That's Calibration, or Calibration Verification, of the Instrument. The next step needs to be Calibration of the Recording Device. Known values (electrical signals with their corresponding pressure values, for instance, 50 cmH2O = 1.0 VDC and 0.0 cmH2O = 0.0 VDC, or maybe you got AC outputs) need to be documented on the recording.

Then biophysiological calibration needs to be done while the patient is still awake, performing positive- and negative- pressure manuevers, and most importantly, quiet, supine end-expiratory measurements to determine the extent of the artifact.
split_city wrote:
StillAnotherGuest wrote:Speaking of which, did you do supine flowrates and FV loops during PFT?
No I didn't. PFTs were conducted in our respiratory lab. Only tests in the upright position can easily be performed.
Hah? Instead of saying "sit down and breathe through this mouthpiece", all you have to do is say "lie down and breathe through this mouthpiece".

SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

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StillAnotherGuest
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Normal Is Relative

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:48 am

StillAnotherGuest wrote:
split_city wrote:
StillAnotherGuest wrote:Speaking of which, did you do supine flowrates and FV loops during PFT?
No I didn't. PFTs were conducted in our respiratory lab. Only tests in the upright position can easily be performed.
Hah? Instead of saying "sit down and breathe through this mouthpiece", all you have to do is say "lie down and breathe through this mouthpiece".
In a limited study (one subject) of the feasibility of performing supine PFT, the following data were obtained:

A Comparison of Postural PFTs in a Normal Population

Lung Volumes - Sitting

Image

Lung Volumes - Supine

Image

Following the procedure, the subject was asked, "Can only tests in the upright position be easily performed?", to which he responded, "Nah, doing supine volumes is NBD".

The aforementioned postural changes in Lung Volumes are noted. While there is a drop in Total Lung Capacity (TLC), the decrease in Functional Residual Capacity (FRC) is seen, with a dramatic decrease in the Expiratory Reserve Volume (ERV). Residual Volume (RV) is minimally affected.

Now, some flowrates.

SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

split_city
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Re: Relative to what?

Post by split_city » Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:50 pm

Here's an abstract looking at the effect of posture on lung function

Spirometric values of obese and non-obese subjects on orthostatic, sitting and supine positions][Article in Portuguese]


Domingos-Benício NC, Gastaldi AC, Perecin JC, Avena Kde M, Guimarães RC, Sologuren MJ, Lopes-Filho JD.
Centro Universitário do Triângulo (UNIT MG) e Universidade de Cuiabá (UNIC).

BACKGROUND: It is possible that obesity could lead to pulmonary restriction with decreasing lung volumes. However, controversies about this restriction and its etiology still exist. Thus, the purpose of this report was to evaluate the effects of body weigh excess on spirometry, on three different body positions, evaluated by Body Mass Index (BMI), percentage of fatness and the ratio of abdominal girth to hip breadth (AG/HB). METHODS: Forty-six sedentary volunteers, with ages between 20 and 40 years, were studied and distributed on five groups, based on BMI. Skin fold thickness and ratio of abdominal girth to hip breadth (AG/HB) of the volunteers were measured. FVC, FEV1 and ratio of FEV1 to FVC were measured on three different body positions--sitting, supine and orthostatic positions. RESULTS: Comparing the values measured and predicted between the groups, no difference was detected. Comparing body positions, the supine position shows lower values than sitting and orthostatic positions (p<0.05). Associations between CVF, VEF1 e VEF1/CVF values and BMI, percentage of fatness and ratio of AG/HB were not found. CONCLUSIONS: Spirometric values from obese people are into normality range and decrease on the supine position.

and another...

Spirometry in normal subjects in sitting, prone, and supine positions.Vilke GM, Chan TC, Neuman T, Clausen JL.
Department of Emergency Medicine, UC San Diego Medical Center 92103, USA. gmvilke@ucsd.edu

OBJECTIVE: Determine whether pulmonary function testing is affected by patient positioning. METHODS: In a descriptive study with measurements made in a sequential but randomized order at a university-based pulmonary function laboratory, 20 healthy men, ages 18-50 years, were evaluated with spirometric assessment of forced vital capacity (FVC), forced expiratory volume in the first second (FEV1), and maximum voluntary ventilation (MVV) in the sitting, supine, and prone positions. Subjects were excluded for body mass index (BMI) > 30 kg/m2 or abnormal baseline spirometry. RESULTS: Comparing sitting to supine and prone positions, there was a statistically significant decline in the spirometry values (reported as percent of predicted normal +/- standard error of the mean). FVC was 102% +/- 4% while sitting, 95% +/- 4% while supine, and 94% +/- 4% while prone. FEV1 was 104% +/- 3% while sitting, 96% +/- 3% while supine, and 94% +/- 3% while prone. MVV was 115% +/- 4% while sitting, 102% +/- 4% while supine, and 97% +/- 3% prone. CONCLUSION: In healthy men with BMI < 30 kg/m2, changing from the sitting to supine or prone position results in statistically significant change in respiratory pattern. However, all spirometry values in each position were normal by American Thoracic Society definitions.

Now in the obese..


Am J Respir Crit Care Med. 1997 Sep;156(3 Pt 1):998-9. Links
Spirometric values in obese individuals. Effects of body position.Gudmundsson G, Cerveny M, Shasby DM.
Division of Pulmonary, Critical Care and Occupational Medicine, University of Iowa, College of Medicine, Iowa City 52242, USA. gunnar-gudmundsson@uiowa.edu

Obesity is increasingly prevalent. Earlier studies indicated that there was a significant but small difference in spirometric values between sitting and standing position in the normal population. It is not known if this is true for obese individuals. The recommendations of the American Thoracic Society (ATS) are to document if a spirometry is done in a sitting or standing position. We performed a study in which we compared sitting and standing spirometric values in obese individuals. Patients with a body mass index (BMI) > or = 30 kg/m2 who were referred for spirometry were invited to participate. All tests were done according to American Thoracic Society recommendations. We studied 50 subjects (32 females and 18 males; mean age 45 yr [SD +/- 14.4]). Age range was 20-71 years. Average BMI was 39 (SD +/- 7, range 30 to 65). Twenty-two did the first testing in the sitting position and 28 standing. There was a small but statistically significant difference between forced vital capacity (FVC) in the standing versus sitting position (Wilcoxen test, p < or = 0.05). There was no significant difference in FEV1 between sitting and standing. Our conclusion is that body position is not important when performing spirometry in persons with BMI > or = 30 kg/m2.


We COULD counduct our PFTs when the patient was in the supine position, but is it really neccessary for my study? Moving all the equipment around just to cater for a supine test probably isn't really worth it. The room I do my testing in really isn't that big. Plus, all the forumale used to determine % predicted were defined in subjects who were upright.

Ok, lung volume stuff. I'm really focussed at lung volume changes (well, lack of) in the obese when moving from an upright position to the supine position.

Image

Why doesn't lung volume decrease in the obese?

We have come up with a couple of theories:

1) FRC is already close to RV in the obese. RV doesn't really change much with alterations in posture. Maybe the additional mass loading on the chest and abdomen isn't enough to further "compress" the lung in the obese?

or

2) Maybe there is some sort of neuromuscular reflex which prevents the diaphragm from ascending, and thus preventing a reduction in lung volume in the obese when they move to the supine posture. Muller actually looked at the effect of abdominal compression on tonic diaphragm activity. The diaphragm is generally electrically inactive at FRC. However, Butler et al 2001 showed that about 4% of costal diaphragm motor units fired tonically. But just for this discussion, the diaphragm is electrically quiet at FRC. Therefore, the position of the diaphragm is partially dependent upon the pressure gradients acting upon the muscle.

Anyways, Muller showed that abdominal compression increased tonic activity of the diaphragm.

Image

This is what they said:

"Our data strongly suggest that there is a stretch reflex
in the diaphragm, which is not surprising given the
presence of spindles. The natural stimulus for this reflex
is the weight of the abdominal contents in the supine
position."

Conversely, they also stated that there was also a decrease in tonic diaphragm activity when the subjects were in REM sleep.

Now, a couple of things to note in their abdominal compression protocol:

1) Abdominal compression wasn't sustained for more than about 30 secs. Is this increased maintained over a longer period?

From our own work, we did show an initial increase in tonic activity during abdominal compression but the activity dissipated after about 30secs and there was no further increase during each of our ten minute periods (I can supply a picture when I get a chance).

2) Diaphragm EMG activity in the Muller paper (and in our study) was measured by an esophageal catheter. The increase in tonic activity may in fact have been an increase in abdominal muscle EMG activity rather than the diaphragm. Maybe the subjects "tensed" up their abdominal muscles during abdominal loading and then relaxed once they got used to the load.

Nevertheless, going back to the lack of change in FRC in the obese. As I said earlier, perhaps the obese do in fact activity defend against a fall in lung volume when moving to the supine position by increasing tonic diaphragm activity. Increasing tonic activity will likely prevent the diaphragm from moving upwards. Maybe this tonic activity is lost at sleep onset, allowing the diaphragm to ascend, resulting in a reduction in FRC. This decrease in FRC will likely increase upper airway collapsibility. However, I have not see any real differences in tonic activity in our obese subjects compared to our healthy weight individuals.

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StillAnotherGuest
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Who Stole My Powder Horn?

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:27 am

Assessment of supine PFT need not necessarily be performed in all obese patients, but could be of great value in in those patients where orthopnea occurs and /or unusual values of positive Pes are observed, suggesting expiratory flow limitation or fixed obstructed airway (however, still waiting for those callibrations to rule out errors in measurement and/or extent of artifact).

Particularly the guy who
split_city wrote:...was crunching his abs as soon as he got off to sleep.
High positive Pes creates an additional set of airway variables. Forced expiration may result in small airways collapse, as seen in the following graphic representation:

Image

This phenomena, which results in intrinsic PEEP, creates air trapping and an entirely different explanation of the unchanging FRC observed in supine obesity.
Expiratory Flow Limitation and Orthopnea in Massively Obese Subjects
Anna Ferretti, MD; Pietro Giampiccolo, MD; Alberto Cavalli, MD; Joseph Milic-Emili, MD and Claudio Tantucci, MD
Chest. 2001;119:1401-1408

Orthopnea, although mild, was claimed by almost half of the subjects, with a substantially greater prevalence in men. Most of the subjects with orthopnea developed EFL or worsened the extent of EFL (from 15 ± 2% to 28 ± 3% of VT; p < 0.01) when supine (Fig 1 , 2) .

In the presence of predisposing conditions such as the shortening of TE due to rapid breathing, augmented VT because of high ventilatory demand, and increased airway resistance caused by airway obstruction or reduced lung volumes, EFL easily can induce dynamic hyperinflation and PEEPi by preventing the respiratory system from reaching its Vr during expiration. Thus, EFL in the supine position may increase the inspiratory work of breathing because of PEEPi, as has been documented in supine obese subjects.19 Indeed, this could be an important mechanism leading to orthopnea in several obese subjects, especially those with higher levels of VT and VT/TE. However, 12 of the 27 subjects who were partially FL in the supine position had no orthopnea (Fig 2 , 3) , suggesting a little increase in dynamic hyperinflation with recumbency, a higher threshold of dyspnea, or both in these individuals.

On the other hand, dynamic hyperinflation and PEEPi also could occur in massively obese subjects when supine simply because of the severe reduction in ERV. In fact, according to previous reports,2 23 many of our subjects should have their Vr below RV in the supine position due to the markedly decreased ERV. Since RV represents an absolute lower limit to EELV, it is implicit that these subjects, when supine, breathe tidally above the Vr, become dynamically hyperinflated, develop PEEPi, and possibly experience orthopnea. Under these conditions, supine EFL would be merely an associated phenomenon. This is supported by the fact that significantly lower values of ERV were found in the obese subjects with orthopnea (p < 0.05).

Finally, 25% of the subjects who claimed to have orthopnea were not FL in the supine position. Conceivably, other factors besides the development of dynamic hyperinflation and PEEPi may cause or worsen dyspnea in these subjects when they are recumbent. A marked increment in upper and lower airway resistance has been observed in seated obese subjects who have increasing apnea-hypopnea index scores,36 and a further significant increase in Rrs was found with recumbency in obese, healthy subjects.34 Since in our population orthopnea was reported mostly by men who exhibited a striking prevalence of OSAHS compared to women, it is likely that an increase in mechanical resistive load may play a role in eliciting dyspnea in some of these individuals when supine.

In conclusion, our results indicate the following: (1) in healthy, massively obese subjects the occurrence or worsening of partial EFL and dyspnea are frequent when they are in the supine position; (2) in these subjects both EFL and reduced ERV, which are related to orthopnea, could explain the dynamic hyperinflation and PEEPi previously observed in obese subjects when they were supine; and (3) this mechanism may partly account for orthopnea in obese subjects.
Another key point is also insuring that all other potential sources of othopnea have been ruled out, including those of cardiac origin. Any signs of right-sided heart failure?

SAG
Last edited by StillAnotherGuest on Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.