How important is stage 3 sleep?

StillAnotherGuest · Post by **StillAnotherGuest** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:45 pm

Yeah, sounds like the EEG is going to be fairly depressed such that nothing is really going to hit the 75 uV amplitude whether it has delta frequency or not.

A better gauge to look at sleep quality in these cases would be to look at overall sleep architecture. If there aren't a ton of stage changes, and you can get some good stretches of Stage 2 (N2) in there (watch that first sleep cycle) that'll probably be as good as it'll get.

On the other hand, if sleep architecture is still a wreck after effective titration due to something else, then perhaps delta sleep still hasn't been given the opportunity to appear.
SAG

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:58 am

Wow, catnapper, you opened a can o' worms! Basically the working theory is that while REM sleep rejuvinates one's mental aspects (mood, memory consolidation.....yes, libido, etc) it is the Slow Wave Sleep (sometimes called Delta sleep, stage3 + stage4, or the new N3) that rejuvinates physically.

To sleep professionals, there is a change in nomenclature of how we "officially" recognize Delta sleep (the new N3). Many of us were hoping the new rules would reflect normal aging changes, but alas......not yet.

Catnapper & Rosemary, to "boost" your Delta sleep, try to increase your exercise. Studies have shown that exercise helps to counter-act the normal diminishing of Delta due to aging. I'll try and locate the studies I read and post a link.

Slinky, yes, Alpha waves usually indicate "awake". Alpha intruding into your Delta sleep would be suspicious for Fibromyalgia or chronic pain. Are either of those in your medical history? There are other reasons, but Fibro and pain management are the most common (at least that I see).

StillAnotherGuest · Post by **StillAnotherGuest** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:21 am

Anonymous wrote:Catnapper & Rosemary, to "boost" your Delta sleep, try to increase your exercise. Studies have shown that exercise helps to counter-act the normal diminishing of Delta due to aging. I'll try and locate the studies I read and post a link.

OK, cool, I'll run the drug angle.

Are we talking "legal" or "comes in a brown wrapper"?

SAG

RosemaryB · Post by **RosemaryB** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:24 am

This is a very helpful thread. Does anyone know what it is about the aging process that causes the decrease in Delta? What happens in the brain, for instance?

Inquiring minds want to know .

Slinky · Post by **Slinky** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:40 am

Thanks, Guest. As a matter of fact, there was a long-term pain problem after a whiplash. It wasn't FM, but rather myofacial pain and it took gentle stretches learned in PT done faithfully for 2 1/2 years and some occasional chiropractic massage & manipulation to finally beat it. Thankfully MPS has not been a problem for several years now unless I REALLY use my arms a lot, especially if I use them above shoulder height for any real length of time. Something I've learned the hard way NOT to do except in almost emergency situations!

Catnapper · Post by **Catnapper** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:36 am

Chronic pain has been an issue for me in the past. I had extremely severe arthritis, and 2 years ago had bilateral total knee replacement. Ouch. The arthritis improved greatly since CPAP. However, I now have severe patellar tendinitis and am going for physical therapy. Just started. My main exercise is riding my recumbent exercise bike, but if my legs start to feel better, I would gladly add walking to the regimen.

I am glad to hear that exercise might help with getting more of the stage 3 type of sleep. I prefer not to add medication if possible.

StillAnotherGuest · Post by **StillAnotherGuest** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:25 pm

OK, to figure out sleep, you have to look at C3A2 (yeah, I know Frontal Leads, but these are from before all that).

Anyway, there's a 75 uV ruler there (+/- 37.5 uV = 75 uV)

So the question is...

WHO is epoch Number 1?

Where's Guest? I'll provide the pictures, you do the commentary.

OK, here's a clue. Number 1 and 2 are the same person.

SAG

rested gal · Post by **rested gal** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:59 pm

I'll make a wild guess... 1 and 2 are an older person. 3 is a young adult. 4 is a young child or baby.

Or... none of the above.

Is it a further clue that you included those two extra channels in the first example?

StillAnotherGuest · Post by **StillAnotherGuest** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:45 am

rested gal wrote:1 and 2 are an older person....

Given that I have to watch out for my own health, I think I'll stay away from "older", and go with "mature".
SAG

StillAnotherGuest · Post by **StillAnotherGuest** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:57 am

rested gal wrote:Is it a further clue that you included those two extra channels in the first example?

Right. It shows that person has a Good Heart.

SAG

StillAnotherGuest · Post by **StillAnotherGuest** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:45 am

RosemaryB wrote:This is a very helpful thread. Does anyone know what it is about the aging process that causes the decrease in Delta? What happens in the brain, for instance?

Inquiring minds want to know .

Changes in human growth hormone production.

Although you could also argue that while HGH is peaking in puberty, why has SWS already decreased from childhood?
SAG

RosemaryB · Post by **RosemaryB** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:59 am

StillAnotherGuest wrote:
RosemaryB wrote:This is a very helpful thread. Does anyone know what it is about the aging process that causes the decrease in Delta? What happens in the brain, for instance?

Inquiring minds want to know .
Changes in human growth hormone production.

Although you could also argue that while HGH is peaking in puberty, why has SWS already decreased from childhood?
SAG

LOL about Barry Bonds.

I wonder if there's something about the maturing brain/body itself that could account for differences in SWS beyond HGH. More than one factor at work.

StillAnotherGuest · Post by **StillAnotherGuest** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:32 am

RosemaryB wrote:I wonder if there's something about the maturing brain/body itself that could account for differences in SWS beyond HGH. More than one factor at work.

Right. Simply "less electricity" (decreasing cerebral metabolic rate and synaptic density) has a better matchup than the HGH angle. A pruning of redundant cortical synapses is a key factor in cognitive maturation, allowing greater specialization and sustained problem solving.1

1Feinberg I, Thode HC, Chugani HT, March JD. Gamma function describes maturational curves for delta wave amplitude, cortical metabolic rate and synaptic density J Theoret Biol 1990;142:149–61

This explanation, however, requires one to accept that they are "getting old", but I myself am not ready to accept that hypothesis.

Say, anybody see what I did with my reading glasses?
SAG

Catnapper · Post by **Catnapper** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:05 am

Hey, did you change the citation? I found the article using info from your post and when I came back to ask a question, you have a different article there.

Maybe I am getting older than I thought.

I found the article I thought you first referenced here http://neuroscience.grad.uiowa.edu/NOD/ ... ticle3.pdf

and wanted to tell you that it was way over my head. My doctor told me he would do some research for me, and I would like to give him the article with the pertinent section highlighted. Would you tell me the page where your quote is?

I will go look for the other reference.

I am unable to deny I am getting old! Doesn't mean I like it. I do like explanations for what is happening to me. Thanks for all your help.

Catnapper, older than dirt

StillAnotherGuest · Post by **StillAnotherGuest** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:12 am

Catnapper wrote:Hey, did you change the citation?

Right. McCarley actually quotes Feinberg, so I think that's the way the credit needs to be given.

SAG

How important is stage 3 sleep?

You Can Look At Other Things...

Looking For Shortcuts...

stage 3

Time To Play "Delta or No Delta"

Right, But That's Not Who, That's What

Plus I Had To Take Away Another Clue

I Wonder What Barry Bonds SWS Looks Like...

Re: I Wonder What Barry Bonds SWS Looks Like...

Maybe You Are, But I'm Not...

stage 3

A Quote of a Quote