OT rant

DG, your YOUTH is showing.

BTW, did you know Paul McCartney was in a band before Wings?

Oh, and no, it wasn't Ted Kennedy that was shot...

Okay, enough making fun of you... Al Gore used to make statements that claimed he invented the internet. Untrue. I think it was invented by committee - which explains alot about it...

LOL,
B.

Okay, enough making fun of you... Al Gore used to make statements that claimed he invented the internet. Untrue. I think it was invented by committee - which explains alot about it... Laughing

Whew! I thought you guys were being serious!!!

<begin geek talk>
Internet was "invented" by the DARPA R&D group (http://www.darpa.mil/) of the U.S. Department of Defence (ummm probably LOTS of committees there, it's the government ), but in fact the internet was built upon pre-existing technology - modified, expanded upon, and connected globally. Much as I hate wikipedia as a real reference for information, I think this is probably a pretty accurate history of the Internet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet

I've always wondered how the hell Al Gore could make this claim... but for this thread, I thought, hmmmm, thanks to Al Gore I now have internet at home , let's look it up... and well, assuming Al Gore didn't pay this guy lots of money to write the article, here's the "real" story (turned up on random Google search, also offers free Bush bashing, sorry to the Bush-lovers on this forum) : http://www.perkel.com/politics/gore/internet.htm .

Here's a bit more serious discussion on this same issue http://sethf.com/gore/

Bascially Al Gore said he 'took initiative in creating the internet' because he supported these projects and was key in getting DARPA funding for this research, while he was a Senator and later VP.
</end geek talk>

(sorry for the totally off topic too long post... I'm bored, it's 2.30 am, insomnia, etc, still waiting for my magic machine.)

Echo, you're a HOOT! Thanks for digging up all that stuff. I hadn't read that before. I figured it was a gaff and left it at that.

I really like the way your mind works!!! Glad you're here! Let us know if we can help you get to "nirvana" or at least a few less 2:30 am computer forays...

Cheers,
Barbara (The First Barbara, okay, maybe not the first, but I notice there's another Barbara now...)

Thanks for digging up all that stuff. I hadn't read that before. I figured it was a gaff and left it at that.

To be honest, I also had heard about the story second hand but never knew the real facts, even though I always laughed at the joke. OK I have to admit I think more highly of him now!

Boy, this OT thread got totally hijacked and even more OT, didn't it?

I really like the way your mind works!!! Glad you're here! Let us know if we can help you get to "nirvana" or at least a few less 2:30 am computer forays...

Heh heh, glad to get the thumbs-up from the group.... well at least from you
I love this forum more and more every day, and I've only been on it a week or so? Ahhhh nirvana... I daydream of peaceful nights and early mornings.... (now if I can just get my boyfriend to get to a sleep study as well!).

The thing that really really sucks is that I *know* how good I can feel if I get this problem fixed, because I used a mouth device that worked great for about one year, and I miss that feeling sooo much. I see now that the whole xPAP thing is a bit more difficult to use, but dammit, I'm going to make it work one way or another, and I love this site for that - everyone here is so friendly and helpful, and even the few misunderstandings seem to sort themselves out nicely (unlike other forums I've been on!). You can really feel that everyone is quite chilled-out and ready to help, so a big THANK YOU! is in store for everyone (but I bet you guys get that a lot ).

I hope to get my titration study and the machine itself on Monday (4 more days!!).. and then no more late-night internetting, unless it's for mask problems
thanks

Is that Belgium as in Europe or one of the three or four towns of that name in the U.S.?

JeffH wrote:The last ten days I've been fighting an injured eye cornea. Painful and not fun at all. To make it worse, one of the eye drops that Doc Rx'ed me cost $65 for 5ml. That's $49,920 a gallon for this stuff. HOW can any company justify charging that for an eye anti-botic? Zymar is the drug.

JeffH

A bit off topic but I work for a large drug company and thought I would offer our perspective. There are a few things you need to realize about drug pricing.

1) You pay for therapy not the cost of the chemical.

2) Drug companies are in the business to make money. To do this, they must discover new drugs constantly or they go out of business.

3) Drug patent life is 20 years. A drug company patents drugs upon suspicion of therapeutic value. The clock starts ticking. Drugs are in development and clinical trials for 5 to 10 years at best before filing an NDA (new drug application). The FDA reviews the safety and efficacy data and approves or rejects in approximately 1 year. If things go really well on any given compound, we may have 10 years of patent exclusivity. This is obviously where we make the money.

4) Typical drug development costs are in the multiple 100's of million dollars. I may be off a bit on this figure but imagine 30 compounds in the pipeline at any given time. Drug research is very expensive!

5) Most drugs are "dry holes". They fail in either efficacy or safety profiles.

6) Pay attention... this is important. The rest of the world has price controls and the US does not. This means US citizens subsidize the rest of the world's cheaper pricing. You might say that the answer is to set the price and not allow governments to set it but that doesn't work. They will simply break the patent and claim the public good.

7) Without profit incentive, the $65 dollar antibiotic would not even be available. Instead you would have to risk infection and possibly losing your eye. Feel free to take that risk now if you don't think the drug companies deserve the price you are paying.

In general, people are living longer and better quality lives due to the many new and novel drugs that the drug companies discover, develop, and market. Antibiotics are a special case. What works today, doesn't tomorrow and new ones need to be discovered and developed continually. Take away the profit incentive, and we lose the potential for future drug therapy for current unmet medical needs. It is very expensive to develop drugs and without the profit incentive, who is going to do it? No one!

A possible means to make drugs cheaper would be to extend patent life. Another is to address the world wide price controls. Institute price controls here and everyone loses.

I know you were just venting and I understand your frustration. It is ours as well but the reality is we all benefit from the life saving therapy possibilities that would otherwise be unavailable. This is my opinion, the result of working in an R&D environment at a major drug company for the last 20 years and watching the politics of drug company bashing.

flylow wrote:

JeffH wrote:The last ten days I've been fighting an injured eye cornea. Painful and not fun at all. To make it worse, one of the eye drops that Doc Rx'ed me cost $65 for 5ml. That's $49,920 a gallon for this stuff. HOW can any company justify charging that for an eye anti-botic? Zymar is the drug.

JeffH

A bit off topic but I work for a large drug company and thought I would offer our perspective. There are a few things you need to realize about drug pricing.

1) You pay for therapy not the cost of the chemical.

2) Drug companies are in the business to make money. To do this, they must discover new drugs constantly or they go out of business.

3) Drug patent life is 20 years. A drug company patents drugs upon suspicion of therapeutic value. The clock starts ticking. Drugs are in development and clinical trials for 5 to 10 years at best before filing an NDA (new drug application). The FDA reviews the safety and efficacy data and approves or rejects in approximately 1 year. If things go really well on any given compound, we may have 10 years of patent exclusivity. This is obviously where we make the money.

4) Typical drug development costs are in the multiple 100's of million dollars. I may be off a bit on this figure but imagine 30 compounds in the pipeline at any given time. Drug research is very expensive!

5) Most drugs are "dry holes". They fail in either efficacy or safety profiles.

6) Pay attention... this is important. The rest of the world has price controls and the US does not. This means US citizens subsidize the rest of the world's cheaper pricing. You might say that the answer is to set the price and not allow governments to set it but that doesn't work. They will simply break the patent and claim the public good.

7) Without profit incentive, the $65 dollar antibiotic would not even be available. Instead you would have to risk infection and possibly losing your eye. Feel free to take that risk now if you don't think the drug companies deserve the price you are paying.

In general, people are living longer and better quality lives due to the many new and novel drugs that the drug companies discover, develop, and market. Antibiotics are a special case. What works today, doesn't tomorrow and new ones need to be discovered and developed continually. Take away the profit incentive, and we lose the potential for future drug therapy for current unmet medical needs. It is very expensive to develop drugs and without the profit incentive, who is going to do it? No one!

A possible means to make drugs cheaper would be to extend patent life. Another is to address the world wide price controls. Institute price controls here and everyone loses.

I know you were just venting and I understand your frustration. It is ours as well but the reality is we all benefit from the life saving therapy possibilities that would otherwise be unavailable. This is my opinion, the result of working in an R&D environment at a major drug company for the last 20 years and watching the politics of drug company bashing.

Of course, the pay that the CEO's get, and the four lobbiest for every congressman figure into the deal also. You make some valid points, but I still think $50k a gallon is flat out STEALING!

The same drug in Canada is $21. MAYBE this country is out of step with the reast of the world. Believe me, the drug companies would still do what they do if this country had universal coverage.

Flylow: All so true!

I would add one thing. Investors in drug companies are taking considerable risk with their own money fronting this expensive research. When the drug companies patent a good drug the investors expect them to make high profits. If they don't do this then the investors will stop putting in money. The drug company will die.

Who are these investors in drug companies? Check the stocks held in your 401k or IRAs or company pension plan. Odds are you invest in these drug companies.

rooster wrote:Is that Belgium as in Europe or one of the three or four towns of that name in the U.S.?

That's Belgium as in the country in Europe.

That's funny because when I registered here, I said that my place of birth was "Germany", and for some reason they thought that it was city in the US, and not the country Germany! So now on my papers it says birthplace: Germany (USA). Too funny! (I'm American)

On another note, I tried to get a sleep study in the U.S. a few years ago, but the wait for a PSG study was ** 6 months **, and I also had to pay the doctor $200 for a consultation to refer me to the sleep clinic! How do you guys do it there?!

echo wrote: On another note, I tried to get a sleep study in the U.S. a few years ago, but the wait for a PSG study was ** 6 months **, and I also had to pay the doctor $200 for a consultation to refer me to the sleep clinic! How do you guys do it there?!

You have to work the system. I told my GP the first week of December 2005 that I must have osa. By December 27 I had completed a consultation with a sleep doc, a sleep study, a second consultation with the sleep doc, a titration night, a visit with Apria and had a mask and machine. Every step along the way took phone calls, pleading, persistence and flexibility. One key is finding out who controls the schedule at each point. It is usually the lowest paid, least educated person in the organization. They can be flattered and they are often sympathetic and helpful to someone who treats them respectfully (since most of the patients, doctors, nurses and technicians they come in contact with don't - OK that may be a little cynical overstament but not too far off).

rooster wrote:Flylow: All so true!

I would add one thing. Investors in drug companies are taking considerable risk with their own money fronting this expensive research. When the drug companies patent a good drug the investors expect them to make high profits. If they don't do this then the investors will stop putting in money. The drug company will die.

Who are these investors in drug companies? Check the stocks held in your 401k or IRAs or company pension plan. Odds are you invest in these drug companies.

Just hope you never end up uninsured and uninsurable like I am. If you do, I promise you, you will change the tune you are singing.

JeffH

JeffH wrote:........

Just hope you never end up uninsured and uninsurable like I am. If you do, I promise you, you will change the tune you are singing.

JeffH

That's exactly the point I am most concerned about. I feel for you.

We ran a system for years of employers paying for insurance and the insurance companies negotiating for our care. This has left people like you (and me when my employer cancels my retiree health insurance - it is just a matter of time) in a very bad position. We have trouble getting competitively priced insurance and even competitively priced health services because of this system.

For your sake (and mine in the future) we need to get to a system of each individual responsible for his own insurance and health care costs. See also my post under viewtopic.php?t=22492&start=15.

rooster wrote:

JeffH wrote:........

Just hope you never end up uninsured and uninsurable like I am. If you do, I promise you, you will change the tune you are singing.

JeffH

That's exactly the point I am most concerned about. I feel for you.

We ran a system for years of employers paying for insurance and the insurance companies negotiating for our care. This has left people like you (and me when my employer cancels my retiree health insurance - it is just a matter of time) in a very bad position. We have trouble getting competitively priced insurance and even competitively priced health services because of this system.

For your sake (and mine in the future) we need to get to a system of each individual responsible for his own insurance and health care costs. See also my post under viewtopic.php?t=22492&start=15.

At the ripe young age of 29 I had to have a pacemaker. From that point to today I've been SOOL when it comes to insurance.

What you are saying makes no sense what so ever. The rest of the world has health care coverage REGARDLESS of their station in life. Why not the people of the good 'ole USofA? What do we treat our people like shit?

If no one will sell me insurance I can't afford, how am I or you any better off?

Bottom line....how well is the health care system working for:

the insurance companies and drug companies? GREAT!

the folks with insurance? So so.

the folks with no insurance? not worth a damn.

You can supply and demand all you want....the system is broke!

JeffH

JeffH[/quote]


Of course, the pay that the CEO's get, and the four lobbiest for every congressman figure into the deal also. You make some valid points, but I still think $50k a gallon is flat out STEALING!

The same drug in Canada is $21. MAYBE this country is out of step with the reast of the world. Believe me, the drug companies would still do what they do if this country had universal coverage.[/quote]


This is the capitalist way. CEOs get paid what they do because good leadership can be the difference between record profits and bankruptcy. Companies and stockholders value this appropriately. I personally find it obscene in a similar way you find the $/gallon price of a medication but it is what it is due to normal supply and demand economics. It is what makes this country different from the rest of the world. I for one, would not want price controls or a planned economy as that is the quickest way to destroy our economy.

I appreciate your feelings due to the lack of insurance coverage. You are correct to say that the health care system is broken. There is no doubt about that but it is wrong to blame the drug and insurance companies. Many parts of the world have universal coverage. This usually comes at a cost in that you may have to wait a year to get a sleep study if you can get one at all as just one example. You will have more people limiting what choices you can make with regard to your health care. My feelings are this is why it has been so hard to politically get meaningful change because we, collectively, want it all. There will undoubtedly be significant sacrifices by those who enjoy good insurance coverage (I would be in that category) so that those who have none (you) can be reasonably covered.

Just my humble opinion and I am not going to belabor the issues any more. I am sorry that you fall in uninsured category as that really stinks. I hope this country can successfully grapple with health care issues so that it is fair for all. It is a very difficult balance to achieve.

"Many parts of the world have universal coverage. This usually comes at a cost in that you may have to wait a year to get a sleep study if you can get one at all as just one example. "

That's just BS and you know it is.