Real Centrals or not?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
Hutzy86
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Real Centrals or not?

Post by Hutzy86 » Sun Jul 02, 2023 12:25 am

G'day Pappers, newbie here :D have been on APAP for around 5 months now, slowly improving, however nearly all my events are central apneas, some even whilst I am awake. Just wanting to know if these are legit central apneas or is the algorithm worse than I thought? Also any tips on sleeping longer, now I'm on APAP I'm usually wide awake after anywhere between 5-6:30 hours.
https://sleephq.com/public/655c4ca8-a0d ... f89a0194df

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Miss Emerita
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Re: Real Centrals or not?

Post by Miss Emerita » Sun Jul 02, 2023 11:58 am

Welcome! Do you have a copy of your sleep study? I'm curious what the breakdown of your AHI was during the study (obstructive apnea, central apnea, hypopnea).

To my eye, many though not all of the CAs come after arousal breathing, which tends to be deeper than regular asleep breathing. This deeper breathing washes out a little bit of CO2 from your bloodstream. Only when CO2 levels reach a certain level will you take your next breath, so if deeper breathing delays the build-up of CO2 to that level, then you may have a pause of 10 seconds or more between breaths. And that gets flagged as a CA.

I see that your median respiration rate is 9.8, which is a little on the low side. Do you know why that might be?

You've asked about your total sleep time. A big question for you is how rested you feel after your 5 to 6.5 hours. I'm going to guess that you don't feel very rested. Is that correct?
Oscar software is available at https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/

Hutzy86
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Re: Real Centrals or not?

Post by Hutzy86 » Sun Jul 02, 2023 10:47 pm

Thanks for the feedback 😃 I have attached a copy of my sleep study from earlier in the year. I also have the added distinction of having ADHD so I take Ritalin first thing in the morning for this, usually feel pretty refreshed after 5-6.5 hours sleep. I work breakfast radio and can't remember last time my alarm went off which is usually set to 3:30am, On a typical night put CPAP on around 7:30-8pm asleep within 5 minutes, could wake up anywhere from around 2-3am. Not sure if the report will open properly if not will try send another way.

Hutzy86
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Re: Real Centrals or not?

Post by Hutzy86 » Sun Jul 02, 2023 10:59 pm

Seems report is too large to send, but key numbers from study
35.7 ahi, 35.1 supine, 44.2 non supine, 39.4 rem
Nadir saturation 83% average 94% baseline heart rate 59bpm, sleep efficiency of 91.2% sleep latency 17.3 min
Severe OSA, moderate oxygen desaturation, significant central events. Total events 269 Apnea 150, Central 94, Obstructive 4, mixed 52, Hypopnea 119

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ozij
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Re: Real Centrals or not?

Post by ozij » Mon Jul 03, 2023 5:59 am

Hutzy86 wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2023 10:59 pm
Seems report is too large to send, but key numbers from study
Nope. not the report size.
And you'll probably want to share OSCAR images in the future.

viewtopic/t183806/Attachment-storage-is ... MENTS.html

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Miss Emerita
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Re: Real Centrals or not?

Post by Miss Emerita » Mon Jul 03, 2023 11:44 am

The data from your sleep study suggest mixed apnea (with both obstructive and central components). Your treatment with a regular PAP machine appears to be helping with both. That's a bit uncommon, so good on you!

I should have done this first time around, but I just looked at that double OA moment on your SleepHQ chart, and both of those events look to me as though they happened after arousals.

You asked whether your events are "legit," meaning events that occur during sleep. We can see the arousal breathing ahead of many of your events. Arousal may mean a short wake-up, or it may mean you're shifting from a deeper stage of sleep to a lighter stage of sleep. We don't really have a way of telling which from the machine's data.

I tentatively conclude that the main issue you're having isn't so much your apnea events but is instead the arousals. I wish I could say there's a way to determine what is causing them, but there isn't.

I also wish there were an obvious change to your settings that would be likely to help. I worry that raising your minimum and/or maximum could bring on more CAs, so I'm reluctant to suggest that. The same goes for EPR, which might help with your flow limitations. I hope other forum members will chime in here!

You didn't include information about your O2 levels from your sleep study; do you have it? One thing you might do is to get a recording O2 monitor just to make sure your O2 levels are where they should be.

I would also recommend that you talk with the doctor treating you for ADHD to see whether your medication can be adjusted, in case it contributes to your arousals at night or your early-ish waking time. Before you started PAP, some of your ADHD-like symptoms may actually have been symptoms of poor sleep, so it's worth reviewing the medication now that your AHI is much lower.

One last question: did you have a titration study as part of your diagnostic/treatment work-up? That would be a study in which they put a mask on you and tried you out on various settings while you sleep. For people with mixed apnea, a titration study might also include emulation of several kinds of machine (regular, bi-level, and adaptive servo-ventilation aka ASV). If you didn't have a titration study, you might ask the sleep doctor about whether that would make sense. I'm not convinced it'd help if your basic problem is arousals, but you never know.

Finally, here's some information about sleep and light, which could conceivably be connected with your difficulty in staying asleep as long as you want to.

https://www.sleepfoundation.org/bedroom ... -and-sleep
Oscar software is available at https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/

Hutzy86
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Re: Real Centrals or not?

Post by Hutzy86 » Tue Jul 04, 2023 11:20 pm

Hopefully these links will give a better idea from my sleep study 🤞
https://ibb.co/MRhWnFR
https://ibb.co/nL8X6Ng
https://ibb.co/z4dRLPs
Last edited by Hutzy86 on Fri Jul 07, 2023 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Miss Emerita
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Re: Real Centrals or not?

Post by Miss Emerita » Wed Jul 05, 2023 11:35 am

"Early review of auto-CPAP effectiveness is recommended due to the presence of central events." Bingo! You should go back to the sleep doctor with your AHI data (including the breakdown into CA, OA, H) and ask about the path toward a machine that might help you more than your current one does. You could ask specifically about titration with a bi-level and ASV treatment.

My guess is that a bi-level machine won't really help, but often trying one is part of the protocol before a (more expensive) ASV machine would be considered.

Please also share with the doctor the information about your median respiration rate.

You were having a lot of arousals during the sleep study, some related to respiration and others "spontaneous," meaning who knows what caused them. With luck, arousals would diminish if your other sleep-respiration issues (and possibly medication issues) were resolved.

You also had a lot of desaturations, i.e., times when your O2 levels dropped. You didn't spend much time below 90%, which is good, but the index for desaturations (total number divided by hours of sleep time) is high at 32. Desats put stress on your body and increase the risk of long-term health problems.

Feel free to post additional charts from SleepHQ or Oscar, but your first order of business is to get back in touch with the doctor to schedule a consultation about your PAP results thus far. Do ask about a titration study and/or a trial of a bi-level or ASV machine, and do draw attention to your median respiration rate.

As I mentioned earlier, you'd also be smart to consult about your ADHD medication.
Oscar software is available at https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/

Hutzy86
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Re: Real Centrals or not?

Post by Hutzy86 » Wed Jul 05, 2023 4:09 pm

Amazing information once again 👌have attached last night's numbers, have been hovering around the 5-6 ahi mark the last 7 days. Still learning my way through understanding the charts and what to change, my breathing seems to be normal until random CA's which up the pressure and then I seem to have more once it goes up. Would it be worth lowering the pressure and maybe switching to fixed? Currently set at Auto 5-8 with auto ramp.
https://sleephq.com/public/43a71dc0-8a0 ... 286fdb278d

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Pugsy
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Re: Real Centrals or not?

Post by Pugsy » Wed Jul 05, 2023 4:16 pm

Hutzy86 wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 4:09 pm
my breathing seems to be normal until random CA's which up the pressure
None of the auto adjusting machines will increase the pressure at all for just a central apnea.
They simply won't do it.
So the pressure increases you see aren't because of the centrals that got flagged.

The auto adjusting machines will increase the pressure in response to snores, flow limitations, OAs and hyponeas.
Most likely one of the reasons for the machine to want to use more pressure is probably why you have the wake up or arousal and then you have the "not real asleep" central because of the arousal from whatever cause.

Your higher pressure needs are also unlikely to be causing even more centrals.

Most likely....from the looks of your Flow Limitation graph....the cause for the increases in pressure are FL related.

You probably need more minimum pressure as well as more max pressure (since you are hitting your max setting).

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palerider
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Re: Real Centrals or not?

Post by palerider » Wed Jul 05, 2023 8:33 pm

What she said.

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Miss Emerita
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Re: Real Centrals or not?

Post by Miss Emerita » Thu Jul 06, 2023 11:28 am

Some of the events are associated with flow limitations but quite a few aren't, at least as far as I can tell. You could certainly try the suggestions from Pugsy and Palerider, who are two incredibly experienced and respected forum members. I've been reluctant to suggest pressure increases given your CA index and the prevalence of CAs at the time of your sleep study. But it's an experiment you could certainly try; you won't harm yourself!

You could also try introducing some EPR, though that too may increase your CAs. EPR is especially helpful in addressing flow limitations.

I'd suggest making only one change at a time, either some EPR or some increases to your min and max pressures. That way you'll know what's associated with what.
Oscar software is available at https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/

dataq1
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Re: Real Centrals or not?

Post by dataq1 » Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:24 pm

Please check for private messages.
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palerider
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Re: Real Centrals or not?

Post by palerider » Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:44 pm

dataq1 wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:24 pm
Please check for private messages.
Don't listen to anything that this fool sends you in PMs, they're doing this to keep people from pointing out how full of bullshit they are.

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Re: Real Centrals or not?

Post by dataq1 » Sat Jul 08, 2023 10:12 pm

Sent you a private message in response the question you asked in your PM to me.
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