Help with testing pressure at home

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lynninnj
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Re: Help with testing pressure at home

Post by lynninnj » Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:22 am

Brad S wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:18 am
lynninnj wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:05 am
Thanks for taking the time. I can certainly see why that is important for someone on a CPAP, for sure. But with something like i have, with the autoset and the APAP, I can't see the significance.
That's why I ask, so I can learn.
It's crazy and frustrating that you have to qualify your question to get an appropriate response.
This Man-O-Meter thing is really interesting to me. I am really interested in the pressure of things- I am a guy :wink: I have looked in the past for a way to measure the output of an oxygen concentrator. What I found was $1,500 or more. I am not that interested. But this might be a way to affordably figure this out.
I am with you though, the pressure of the CPAP might be nice to know, but like you say, if the machine is doing what it is supposed to, then the actual pressure measurement isn't really that important.
Given that your wife is on an oxygen concentrator, I can totally see how that matters a great deal to you and she. Maybe someone will be able to provide you with the cheap know-how option.

Thanks for recognizing the challenges of posting her at times as well as for the laugh.

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Re: Help with testing pressure at home

Post by Brad S » Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:28 am

lynninnj wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:22 am
Thanks for recognizing the challenges of posting her at times as well as for the laugh.
I may be old, grumpy and angry, but I love to laugh.
Oh yeah, did I mention good looking too?
:shock: :lol: :D

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Re: Help with testing pressure at home

Post by Grumpy48 » Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:14 pm

From my post a few posts back, a picture I took a while back of the Amazon bought manometer measuring the pressure of my AS10 Auto. My DS2 was also spot on. I'm pretty confident both CPAP's are calibrated and pushing the displayed pressure.

Image

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Re: Help with testing pressure at home

Post by palerider » Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:07 pm

Brad S wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:18 am
I have looked in the past for a way to measure the output of an oxygen concentrator. What I found was $1,500 or more. I am not that interested. But this might be a way to affordably figure this out.
What are you trying to measure from an oxygen concentrator? most of them have flow meters built in. If you're trying to measure whether the concentrator is actually producing high grade oxygen, then you need an oxygen monitor, like this: https://smile.amazon.com/Portable-Measu ... B074NR2R9X shop around, you can find them for less. This one looks like the one I have: https://smile.amazon.com/Portable-Oxyge ... B00MFC0L4Q A manometer won't tell you anything with an oxygen concentrator. Also note that some oxygen concentrators have built in monitors and will alarm if the oxygen concentration drops below a set level (usually somewhere in the mid 80% range, at least the two that I worked on that my late brother had.)
Brad S wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:18 am
I am with you though, the pressure of the CPAP might be nice to know, but like you say, if the machine is doing what it is supposed to, then the actual pressure measurement isn't really that important.
The only reason to bother with a manometer with a cpap or apap is when someone says "this thing isn't making as much pressure as it used to", then you can actually measure the pressure, and see if the machine is faulty, or if it's simply a matter o the user getting acclimated to the machine and perceiving the pressure differently, which happens all the time.

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Re: Help with testing pressure at home

Post by Brad S » Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:40 am

palerider wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:07 pm
What are you trying to measure from an oxygen concentrator? most of them have flow meters built in. If you're trying to measure whether the concentrator is actually producing high grade oxygen, then you need an oxygen monitor, like this: https://smile.amazon.com/Portable-Measu ... B074NR2R9X shop around, you can find them for less. This one looks like the one I have: https://smile.amazon.com/Portable-Oxyge ... B00MFC0L4Q A manometer won't tell you anything with an oxygen concentrator. Also note that some oxygen concentrators have built in monitors and will alarm if the oxygen concentration drops below a set level (usually somewhere in the mid 80% range, at least the two that I worked on that my late brother had.)
Thank you for the reply and this helps a lot.
I am trying to figure out a way to verify the output of an InvoCare home oxygen concentrator. The machine is set at 3L but there are times when my wife says she feels like there is not enough air coming out. So, the process begins, usually I replace the hose, it is not worth risking her health for 7 bucks and this always seems to fix the problem. She will plug into her portable machine and I have run my hands along the hose feeling for cracks, leaks or where it might have been kinked. I have filled a bucket of water and with the machine running put the hose in the bucket to look for bubbles. Only one time did that work. The rest of the time it is a mystery and probably a pin hole in the hose.
Last night is a good example of this. She thought something was wrong, I traced the hose the air flow "felt" fine to me. She waited a few minutes while I was doing this and said it felt normal again.
I understand to just replace the hose but it would be great to have something like this meter this to quickly attach to the end of the hose and know if it is the machine doing something weird, the hose leaking or something else completely. I don't care how many hoses I have to replace, that is an easy fix. If the machine is acting up, that is a different problem.
palerider wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:07 pm
The only reason to bother with a manometer with a cpap or apap is when someone says "this thing isn't making as much pressure as it used to", then you can actually measure the pressure, and see if the machine is faulty, or if it's simply a matter o the user getting acclimated to the machine and perceiving the pressure differently, which happens all the time.
This makes perfect sense. I didn't think about using it for that reason.
Thank you for your response and help and I will look into these meters.

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Re: Help with testing pressure at home

Post by palerider » Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:58 pm

Brad S wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:40 am
Thank you for the reply and this helps a lot.
I am trying to figure out a way to verify the output of an InvoCare home oxygen concentrator.
Which one? I've got an Invacare Perfecto2 here, and have done some repair work on it. We nicknamed it 'thumper' because of it's characteristic 'thump' it makes when switching sieve beds. This one has a built in 'SensO2" sensor that alarms if the O2 concentration falls below what it should be providing.
Brad S wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:40 am
The machine is set at 3L but there are times when my wife says she feels like there is not enough air coming out. So, the process begins, usually I replace the hose, it is not worth risking her health for 7 bucks and this always seems to fix the problem.
Feelings are very subjective, the way to see whether or not it's flowing oxygen is to look at the flow meter.

One easy way to check for leaks is to just plug up the end of the hose, if it's not leaking, you'll see the flow meter drop to zero, or near zero. Another way (and this gets a bit messy) is to fill a 2 liter bottle with water, stick the hose in, then invert it into a sink (or bucket) that's already got water in it, Turn on the concentrator and see how long it takes for it to push the water out with oxygen, then a little math will tell you the flow rate.
Brad S wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:40 am
She will plug into her portable machine and I have run my hands along the hose feeling for cracks, leaks or where it might have been kinked. I have filled a bucket of water and with the machine running put the hose in the bucket to look for bubbles. Only one time did that work. The rest of the time it is a mystery and probably a pin hole in the hose.
Well, a *portable* O2 concentrator is more complicated, because many of them operate "on demand" not "continuous". The test I outlined above will only work with a continuous flow machine. If it's on demand, then the machine doesn't supply oxygen until it senses the user starting to inhale, that way the batteries last longer.
Brad S wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:40 am
Last night is a good example of this. She thought something was wrong, I traced the hose the air flow "felt" fine to me. She waited a few minutes while I was doing this and said it felt normal again.
You can submerge the hose in water, while she's using the machine (if it's on demand setting) and watch for bubbles.
Brad S wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:40 am
I understand to just replace the hose but it would be great to have something like this meter this to quickly attach to the end of the hose and know if it is the machine doing something weird, the hose leaking or something else completely. I don't care how many hoses I have to replace, that is an easy fix. If the machine is acting up, that is a different problem.
It's entirely possible that there's really not anything wrong with the machine, maybe she's breathing too gently for it, (are there sensitivity settings?)

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Re: Help with testing pressure at home

Post by Brad S » Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:20 pm

palerider wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:58 pm
One easy way to check for leaks is to just plug up the end of the hose, if it's not leaking, you'll see the flow meter drop to zero, or near zero. Another way (and this gets a bit messy) is to fill a 2 liter bottle with water, stick the hose in, then invert it into a sink (or bucket) that's already got water in it, Turn on the concentrator and see how long it takes for it to push the water out with oxygen, then a little math will tell you the flow rate.
Great information. Thank you.
Her machine is the Perfecto2 TM V.
I have only plugged the end of the hose briefly while I have the hose in a bucket. I never thought to look at the flow meter, besides, until you told me what it should do I wouldn't have known if it was working correctly or not. I am always very cautious not to do anything that might hurt the machine. We are a long way from help if this all goes bad.
Next time she feels like something is not right I will try plugging the end of the hose first and watch the flow meter.
I just know the smoke test. If you don't know what the cause of the problem is, try something and keep going until you figure it out.
palerider wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:58 pm
It's entirely possible that there's really not anything wrong with the machine, maybe she's breathing too gently for it, (are there sensitivity settings?)
This breathing issue only happens on the Perfecto concentrator at home-I believe there is no sensitivity setting on the constant flow. I may not have been clear in my post earlier. This only happens on the Perfecto not the portable.
I am almost positive there is nothing wrong with the machine, but I am just looking for a way to easily test it and make sure when there are questions about air flow. The hose replacement is an easy fix, if something goes wrong with the machine it would be a completely different story. Oddly enough, this almost always happens in the evening as we are listening to music or watching TV winding down for the day. I am worried if I replace the hose and she temporarily feels better and we go to bed, the overnight effects could be devastating if there is something wonky with the machine. I am probably too cautious about this but this is just how I am.
She does monitor her O2 frequently and her oxygen level on a few occasions has been low without her realizing. I replace the hose and within a minute the levels are right back up in the upper 90's
I thought as we got older things would be less complicated. Boy was I wrong!
Thanks again and I will post a reply and results here when it happens again. I am curious to see what happens.

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Re: Help with testing pressure at home

Post by palerider » Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:18 pm

Brad S wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:20 pm
palerider wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:58 pm
One easy way to check for leaks is to just plug up the end of the hose, if it's not leaking, you'll see the flow meter drop to zero, or near zero. Another way (and this gets a bit messy) is to fill a 2 liter bottle with water, stick the hose in, then invert it into a sink (or bucket) that's already got water in it, Turn on the concentrator and see how long it takes for it to push the water out with oxygen, then a little math will tell you the flow rate.
Great information. Thank you.
Her machine is the Perfecto2 TM V.
I have only plugged the end of the hose briefly while I have the hose in a bucket. I never thought to look at the flow meter, besides, until you told me what it should do I wouldn't have known if it was working correctly or not. I am always very cautious not to do anything that might hurt the machine. We are a long way from help if this all goes bad.
Next time she feels like something is not right I will try plugging the end of the hose first and watch the flow meter.
I just know the smoke test. If you don't know what the cause of the problem is, try something and keep going until you figure it out.
Ok, yeah, also, the Perfecto2 V has the SensO2 oxygen monitor built in (from everything I can find about that particular model, it's a later version of one of the ones I have here. If the O2 level falls below 85%, (according to service manual) the green light won't be on, you'll get a yellow light if the O2 level is between 73 and 85%, and red if it's below 73%. So, no need to buy a separate oxygen monitor. The machine's are pretty sturdy (having had mine apart a number of times chasing down a little problem it was having with cycling.
Brad S wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:20 pm
palerider wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:58 pm
It's entirely possible that there's really not anything wrong with the machine, maybe she's breathing too gently for it, (are there sensitivity settings?)
This breathing issue only happens on the Perfecto concentrator at home-I believe there is no sensitivity setting on the constant flow. I may not have been clear in my post earlier. This only happens on the Perfecto not the portable.
Ok, that extra info helps, yes, the Perfecto2 doesn't have a pulse mode, it's just always on, so easier to test for flow :)
Brad S wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:20 pm
I am almost positive there is nothing wrong with the machine, but I am just looking for a way to easily test it and make sure when there are questions about air flow. ....
Thanks again and I will post a reply and results here when it happens again. I am curious to see what happens.
That's all very strange, unless you've got pets that are chewing on the hose, I can't imagine what's happening, I mean, my brother used the same hose for years without ever having a problem with it, or the hose developing any leaks.

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Re: Help with testing pressure at home

Post by Brad S » Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:21 pm

palerider wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:18 pm
That's all very strange, unless you've got pets that are chewing on the hose, I can't imagine what's happening, I mean, my brother used the same hose for years without ever having a problem with it, or the hose developing any leaks.
That is interesting. She gets her supplies from Apria and we supplement as needed from our local medical supply store. They are the green 50' hoses from both places wrapped in the same mfg. plastic.
We have no pets- lost our Doggo a couple of months ago but he never bothered the hose. No mice or other pests.
The hoses last from 2 weeks to about a month and a half. Some I can feel have been previously kinked when I unwrap and unroll them from their new packaging. Others curl up no matter what I do. I have even put a curly hose in the dryer in a lingerie bag on low heat and then lightly stretched it when it was warm. That helps some. Others develop pin holes and in general just don't last. There was one that cracked about 12" off the machine connection where there is no stress or places to wear on it.
We are careful not to step on them and I have every corner padded, floor vent corners taped etc. so they don't catch on anything. As I go to bed at night, I run my hand down the tubing from the machine to my wifes nose... LOL to feel for pin holes or leaks. I have found several this way.
We have very smooth hardwood floors in every room of the house except for carpet in the living room and a smooth transition to tile in the bathrooms. There is nothing to snag or catch the hose on.
I would like to know what brand your brother used. We sure don't have those here. I have even tried the purple hoses from Amazon that are supposed to be really durable. We only used two of those and they both failed in a matter of days.

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Re: Help with testing pressure at home

Post by palerider » Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:36 pm

Brad S wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:21 pm
palerider wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:18 pm
That's all very strange, unless you've got pets that are chewing on the hose, I can't imagine what's happening, I mean, my brother used the same hose for years without ever having a problem with it, or the hose developing any leaks.
That is interesting. She gets her supplies from Apria and we supplement as needed from our local medical supply store. They are the green 50' hoses from both places wrapped in the same mfg. plastic.
We have no pets- lost our Doggo a couple of months ago but he never bothered the hose. No mice or other pests.
The hoses last from 2 weeks to about a month and a half. Some I can feel have been previously kinked when I unwrap and unroll them from their new packaging. Others curl up no matter what I do. I have even put a curly hose in the dryer in a lingerie bag on low heat and then lightly stretched it when it was warm. That helps some. Others develop pin holes and in general just don't last. There was one that cracked about 12" off the machine connection where there is no stress or places to wear on it.
We are careful not to step on them and I have every corner padded, floor vent corners taped etc. so they don't catch on anything. As I go to bed at night, I run my hand down the tubing from the machine to my wifes nose... LOL to feel for pin holes or leaks. I have found several this way.
We have very smooth hardwood floors in every room of the house except for carpet in the living room and a smooth transition to tile in the bathrooms. There is nothing to snag or catch the hose on.
I would like to know what brand your brother used. We sure don't have those here. I have even tried the purple hoses from Amazon that are supposed to be really durable. We only used two of those and they both failed in a matter of days.
That's really strange... but you mentioned Crapira... I don't know whether they'd ship you substandard product or not. You might try a different supplier.

Sorry to hear 'bout your Doggo.

You might try some other suppliers, cpap.com, directhomemedical.com, amazon, ebay, etc.
I hope some of the things I said may help you in figuring out what's going on.

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Re: Help with testing pressure at home

Post by Wulfman... » Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:07 am

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Re: Help with testing pressure at home

Post by Brad S » Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:47 am

palerider wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:36 pm
I hope some of the things I said may help you in figuring out what's going on.
What you said has helped a lot and it is really appreciated. Thank you.
I will try cpap.com and other suppliers to see if we can find better hoses. When we went in for my wife's initial setup and fitting just over two years ago, I specifically asked the question about how long the hoses last. The response was 2 to 4 weeks is the average. Based only on this, I didn't expect anything different and thought this was normal and happy when we get 6 weeks out of a hose.
It would be such a relief to find oxygen tubing that only had to be replaced once or twice a year, or less. I very much appreciate you telling me all of this information.
I do feel much better about the reliability of the machine and plugging the end of the hose to test for leaks. I did read about the o2 sensor on the Perfecto and it is reassuring to know there is an internal backup.
Thank you again. All of this has been very helpful and has made me feel much better.

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Re: Help with testing pressure at home

Post by Brad S » Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:52 am

Wulfman... wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:07 am
Testing your pressure
search.php?keywords=%22homemade+manomet ... 7f6b090950
Den
Thanks Den. I appreciate the post. I am actually looking for an (affordable) way to check the output of an at home stationary oxygen concentrator. Palerider gave me great information and my search is now a low priority.
I did read your link and there are a couple of really good options and ideas in there for checking the cpap machine flow. Your link was very useful. Thank you.

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Re: Help with testing pressure at home

Post by palerider » Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:48 am

Brad S wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:52 am
Wulfman... wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:07 am
Testing your pressure
search.php?keywords=%22homemade+manomet ... 7f6b090950
Den
Thanks Den. I appreciate the post. I am actually looking for an (affordable) way to check the output of an at home stationary oxygen concentrator. Palerider gave me great information and my search is now a low priority.
I did read your link and there are a couple of really good options and ideas in there for checking the cpap machine flow. Your link was very useful. Thank you.
Yes, Den's advice is completely irrelevant, given that the specs for that oxygen concentrator show that it's output pressure, is on the order of 351 cmH2O.

As you noticed, it is relevant for CPAP pressures though. (though I just bought a $30 digital differential manometer off ebay, easier to read :D)

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Re: Help with testing pressure at home

Post by Country4ever » Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:43 pm

I'm a bit late getting back to this conversation, but the reason I wanted to check the pressure was because my AHI was going up a bit and I have an older model (Resmed 9), and I was sensing that the force of the airflow was lower than usual. I also began to be extremely tired, etc., So that's why I wanted to check it with another method.