sleeping after discontinuing CPAP?

seepap12345 · Post by **seepap12345** » Mon Feb 21, 2022 6:28 pm

One of my relatives probably has sleep apnea and he said he believes if he would start using CPAP and he would discontinue it one day for some reason he would not be able to sleep or have worse sleep quality than before CPAP because he believes it causes dependency as he thinks the machine pushes air into him so his body like forgets to breathe properly at night. Is this fear justified? Are there any studies about this? What happens if someone discontinues using the machine like after years of using it? Does their sleep just get back to baseline?
I believe his reason not to even consider CPAP is nonsense but I'd like to find solid evidence to show him.

GrumpyHere · Post by **GrumpyHere** » Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:52 pm

It's just plain denial.

I can't convince my father to test for apnea or try my backup CPAP.
He gives exactly the same excuses.

The dependency thing isn't logical ... would he not wear glasses, not wear dentures, or not use a cane because he would become dependent on it?

There is a carryover effect so that he would actually sleep better that night than if he didn't start using CPAP.

For repeated sleep lab testing, the labs actually want you to stop using CPAP for 3 days to a week to get better data.

CPAP don't initiate the breathing effort for Obstructive Sleep Apnea. So there is no forgetting involved.

CPAP is like using an assisted Pull Up/Dip machine. If he doesn't put in the effort, the machine doesn't do anything.

Edit: more examples, formatting and logic flow

chunkyfrog · Post by **chunkyfrog** » Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:28 pm

Your relative is making the wrong choice. (Like addicts do)
Don't beat yourself up because you can not "fix stupid."
It is their life, not yours.
You can be your brother's keeper, but you can not be his savior.
Love them as long as you can; but do not hate yourself.

seepap12345 · Post by **seepap12345** » Tue Feb 22, 2022 4:55 am

Thank you for these great replies. Are there any actual studies that I could show him? Any scientific evidence I mean.

GrumpyHere · Post by **GrumpyHere** » Tue Feb 22, 2022 5:55 am

I don't think there are studies on effects of stopping CPAP therapy.

Who would make money on it?

Regarding the carryover effect, there is a paper on need for washout before PSG retest.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25487311/

seepap12345 · Post by **seepap12345** » Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:09 am

GrumpyHere wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:52 pm
It's just plain denial.

I can't convince my father to test for apnea or try my backup CPAP.
He gives exactly the same excuses.

The dependency thing isn't logical ... would he not wear glasses, not wear dentures, or not use a cane because he would become dependent on it?

There is a carryover effect so that he would actually sleep better that night than if he didn't start using CPAP.

For repeated sleep lab testing, the labs actually want you to stop using CPAP for 3 days to a week to get better data.

CPAP don't initiate the breathing effort for Obstructive Sleep Apnea. So there is no forgetting involved.

CPAP is like using an assisted Pull Up/Dip machine. If he doesn't put in the effort, the machine doesn't do anything.

Edit: more examples, formatting and logic flow

He also says he feels alright. I told him he would probably feel much better with treatment.

GrumpyHere · Post by **GrumpyHere** » Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:40 am

I felt "alright".

Being tired was just my "normal."

I JUST needed to find more time to sleep and then I would be better than alright.

Show him

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/d ... %20attacks.

Or just have him google "untreated apneas"

Bon Chance.

palerider · Post by **palerider** » Tue Feb 22, 2022 8:09 am

seepap12345 wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 21, 2022 6:28 pm
One of my relatives probably has sleep apnea and he said he believes if he would start using CPAP and he would discontinue it one day for some reason he would not be able to sleep or have worse sleep quality than before CPAP because he believes it causes dependency as he thinks the machine pushes air into him so his body like forgets to breathe properly at night. Is this fear justified? Are there any studies about this? What happens if someone discontinues using the machine like after years of using it? Does their sleep just get back to baseline?
I believe his reason not to even consider CPAP is nonsense but I'd like to find solid evidence to show him.

Using CPAP is like using eye glasses.

Put on glasses, see better, take glasses off, see badly again.

Glasses don't make your eyes worse, they just get worse over time.

cpap doesn't make your apnea worse, it just gets worse over time.

But, just like taking your glasses off makes you more likely to stumble over something after you've been able to see the obstructions and gotten used to avoiding them, suddenly stopping cpap might cause you to have a heart attack or stroke in the night, like a certain supreme court justice a few years ago who died while not using cpap.

it's idiotic to not use the cpap.

BeckyLC · Post by **BeckyLC** » Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:53 am

In my nine years of using CPAP I've discontinued using it for a night or two - not by choice. I can tell you I just slept crappy - not worse than I used to, just crappy like I used to. One time the machine wouldn't start and I couldn't figure out why (my stupid, it was fine). Another time I went to my daughter's for a few days and didn't realize there were no nasal prongs in my travel mask. Back to crappy sleep and snoring until I found a place to buy what I needed. He clearly doesn't understand how CPAP works.

chunkyfrog · Post by **chunkyfrog** » Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:07 pm

Speaking of glasses, hearing aids, even canes:
I don't always need a cane, but when I do, I better use it--or suffer the consequences.
Once we need cpap, we will always need it.
If we stop using cpap, we suffer the consequences.
In OSA, there is no "training the weakness away." It does not happen.
The changes are permanent.

Miss Emerita · Post by **Miss Emerita** » Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:16 pm

This small and partly speculative article suggests that perhaps 10% of people who have used PAP regularly may not experience a recurrence of sleep apnea after they stop. In other words, some people might actually be better than they were pre-PAP if they use PAP and then quit. https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/43/5/1227

I think there's a very long list of caveats here: did the patients lose weight? stop smoking? change meds? change sleep positions? How much can their original diagnostic tests be relied upon? Would the same results appear if there were a larger group studied? Even if AHI is below 5 for the 10%, what does their sleep architecture look like?

But this might help you persuade your stubborn relative.

seepap12345 · Post by **seepap12345** » Wed Feb 23, 2022 3:27 am

BeckyLC wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:53 am
In my nine years of using CPAP I've discontinued using it for a night or two - not by choice. I can tell you I just slept crappy - not worse than I used to, just crappy like I used to. One time the machine wouldn't start and I couldn't figure out why (my stupid, it was fine). Another time I went to my daughter's for a few days and didn't realize there were no nasal prongs in my travel mask. Back to crappy sleep and snoring until I found a place to buy what I needed. He clearly doesn't understand how CPAP works.

Thanks. What is a nasal prong and why do you need one if I may ask? As I know it is not a standard element of CPAP treatment.

ChicagoGranny · Post by **ChicagoGranny** » Wed Feb 23, 2022 6:59 am

seepap12345 wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 23, 2022 3:27 am
What is a nasal prong and why do you need one if I may ask? As I know it is not a standard element of CPAP treatment.

She's probably talking about nasal pillows - https://www.verywellhealth.com/what-are ... ws-3015323

ChicagoGranny · Post by **ChicagoGranny** » Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:04 am

seepap12345 wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 21, 2022 6:28 pm
he thinks the machine pushes air into him so his body like forgets to breathe properly at night.

CPAP does not breathe for the user. It does not cause the user to breathe. It doesn't change the way a person breathes. It only splints the airway open so that the user CAN breathe.

If he would discontinue CPAP, he would breathe normally except for those many dangerous times his airway collapses and chokes him.

ChicagoGranny · Post by **ChicagoGranny** » Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:07 am

BTW, we all discontinue CPAP every morning. Do we not breathe properly during the day because the use of CPAP every night has destroyed our ability to breathe properly?

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