Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

[chunkyfrog]

I am interested if anyone has thoughts regarding the DME company continuing to charge a rental fee for a machine that cannot be used. I bought a new one out of pocket with a diferent company. These guys claim the insurance company told them to continue billing. Makes no sense to me. At least suspend payments until the machine becomes useable.

I would agree most emphatically.
It might call for a trip to court, though.

[ChicagoGranny]

These guys claim the insurance company told them to continue billing.

Never, never, trust your DME. Call your insurance company. The customer service rep at your insurance company will likely not be well informed on this subject. Ask to speak to a supervisor.

[HairyReasoner]

I asked my wife if it bothered her to sleep next to me because my unit might be off gassing. She said, "We've been married over 20 years. I'm used to it by now." . . . I don't get it. I haven't been on a CPAP that long.

[Grumpy48]

If most DME's do business similar to the one I have, the DME will have the credit card on file from the person using the machine and if Medicare or insurance fails to pay, that credit card is the fallback payment method. Even if the CPAP is not usable it's probably better to let the insurance company deal with paying for it than having the DME bill the end user. If you don't have a credit card on file with your DME, there's a pretty good chance you signed a legally binding agreement upon receipt of the CPAP that you'll agree to be billed if Medicare or insurance failed to do so.

My own DME told me that if I had a 'failed' CPAP device they were obligated to provide a loaner. In a sense the Philips CPAP's are failed units since they were deemed unusable by Philips. I don't know what other DME's would do, but under the circumstances a loaner seems reasonable and might be worth asking the DME if they do this rather than paying out of pocket to buy a replacement. There also has been mention of Medicare paying for a replacement if a CPAP has failed. My PCP also hinted this would likely be the case, but it may take some time for Medicare and insurance to get things sorted out.

I haven't stopped using my DreamStation and I have no intention of modifying it by attempting foam removal. If I had used a method of 'cleaning' (ozone) that exacerbated foam breakdown I'd be particularly concerned, but the environment my CPAP resides in is fairly moderate in temperature and humidity, so degradation of the foam would/should be quite slow. Any significant off-gassing has already occurred in the first few months I used the CPAP and now tapered off. The Canadians and the VA seemed to have made rational recommendations for continued usage. I haven't as off yet decided if I'll pursue a replacement CPAP or not, but the idea of a Resmed is appealing.

An example of foam degradation is the foam that was in one of my microphone cases that I opened up a few weeks ago. The microphone was bought in the 1995, so the foam is about 26 years old. It took a long, long time to get in its current state of mushy and crumbly. I probably last used this particular microphone 10-12 years ago and the foam at that time was still quite intact and solid. Present day foam chemistries should be better than they were 26 years ago, right?

[reader2580]

I am interested if anyone has thoughts regarding the DME company continuing to charge a rental fee for a machine that cannot be used. I bought a new one out of pocket with a diferent company. These guys claim the insurance company told them to continue billing. Makes no sense to me. At least suspend payments until the machine becomes useable.

This is sort of a tricky one. Usually it is the insurance company that insists on paying for the machine as a rental. The DME doesn't want to stop the rental if insurance is still paying because the DME already paid the manufacturer for the machine. If you gave them the machine back to stop the rental they would be crazy to take the liability of renting or selling a recalled CPAP to someone else.

I got a new CPAP on Dec 31, 2019. My insurance company at the time still wanted to rent the machine even though I was fully compliant with my old machine. My employer switched to a new insurer on Jan 1, 2020. After a couple of rental bills the new insurance company just paid for the remaining balance.

Stupid question: What happens to CPAP machines that are returned because a newly diagnosed patient doesn't meet compliance in the first 90 days? It seems like new patients always get a new machine and not a returned one.

[HairyReasoner]

I am interested if anyone has thoughts regarding the DME company continuing to charge a rental fee for a machine that cannot be used. I bought a new one out of pocket with a diferent company. These guys claim the insurance company told them to continue billing. Makes no sense to me. At least suspend payments until the machine becomes useable.

Of course, if you take it back and stop renting it, the payments should stop. But, you have to consider your insurance position when you do that. For instance, I'm 8 months into my rental, and I've now met the deductible on my insurance. So, I only pay 20% of the rental payment for the next 5 months. That means I've almost paid everything I'm going to for this machine. It wouldn't make sense for me to return it at this point. I might as well keep the machine, so I have it to get repaired. I may only use it as a backup if I end up getting a Resmed, but at least I'll have something to show for the money I paid.

[ChicagoGranny]

I haven't stopped using my DreamStation and I have no intention of modifying it by attempting foam removal. If I had used a method of 'cleaning' (ozone) that exacerbated foam breakdown I'd be particularly concerned, but the environment my CPAP resides in is fairly moderate in temperature and humidity, so degradation of the foam would/should be quite slow. Any significant off-gassing has already occurred in the first few months I used the CPAP and now tapered off. The Canadians and the VA seemed to have made rational recommendations for continued usage.

You may be Grumpy, but you are one of the rare reasonable voices in this thread.

[ChicagoGranny]

I asked my wife if it bothered her to sleep next to me because my unit might be off gassing. She said, "We've been married over 20 years. I'm used to it by now." . . . I don't get it. I haven't been on a CPAP that long.

[Davidtoo]

I am interested if anyone has thoughts regarding the DME company continuing to charge a rental fee for a machine that cannot be used. I bought a new one out of pocket with a diferent company. These guys claim the insurance company told them to continue billing. Makes no sense to me. At least suspend payments until the machine becomes useable.

I would agree most emphatically.
It might call for a trip to court, though.

Lets talk about reality here. Whether it chose to or not, the retail outlet sold you what may have been a defective machine that may have caused you harm. Typical product liability law makes not only the manufacturer potentially liable for damages, but the end seller also, everybody in the chain from manufacturer to middle man to end seller has potential liability. Probably none of us will be able to prove injury so a product liability suit is not likely in the cards. On the other hand, I don't see how you can be charged for renting a defective unit that the retail unit sold to you. If anything, we all have claims against the retail unit, including the manufacturer, for selling us the defective unit, by which we can demand a refund. Imagine if millions of people brought claims against Phillips and the DMEs for a refund for the cost of the machine? They should be willing to work with you to avoid that.

[chunkyfrog]

The dealer is obligated to be aware of recalls, and could
REASONABLY be expected to promptly cease sales of recalled units.
If the respironics machine was sold after the recall was announced,
the customer could have legal recourse.

[Dog Slobber]

CPAP_risk.jpg (391.31 KiB) Viewed 2023 times

[ChicagoGranny]

Also alcoholic beverages. Alcohol is a known carcinogen.

I'm having my usual glass of sweet wine for dessert tonight.

[CTcentrals]

MEDICARE Update for those who may be interested and don't have Advantage Plans (i.e. Original Medicare).

This is the copy of chat with Medicare, names edited out:

[2:28:49 pm]: The supplier is responsible for replacing or repairing capped rental equipment at no cost to the beneficiary when the equipment is less than 5 years old. If the equipment is more than 5 years old, Medicare will help pay for a replacement.

The supplier will need some updated paperwork to process the replacement. A new prescription or Certificate of Medical Necessity will be required to show medical necessity. Medicare requires this whether you own or rent the equipment.

Now, there is another option to replace the CPAP machine. Your doctor can rewrite the prescription stating that the current machine no longer suits your medical needs and needs to be replaced. This is like the same process as when you initially got the CPAP device.

[2:30:04 pm]: If your supplier is not cooperative, then we can and will escalate this issue since CPAP is considered a life sustaining equipment.

[2:30:09 pm]: Ok, I understand, thank you

[2:31:15 pm]: Talk to your doctor then talk with the supplier. If you have any issues with the supplier, pleasse get back in touch with Medicare and we most definitely will step for you and get this resolved.

[ChicagoGranny]

MEDICARE Update

Thank you. This is not a new practice of Medicare. Prior to the Philips recall, if your machine failed, you could get a replacement under Medicare using this procedure.

The DME has to provide a replacement for the Philips machines even if they have to use another brand machine.

[Goofproof]

Also alcoholic beverages. Alcohol is a known carcinogen.

I'm having my usual glass of sweet wine for dessert tonight.

Even more health damage from Sugar intake. Jim