Withings Scanwatch

This new watch coming out soon supposed is medically approved to detect sleep apnea. Is this possible?

It has done trials at hospitals to get this clearance. I think it uses a combination of sleep tracking algorithms and SPO2 to reach its conclusions.

https://www.withings.com/uk/en/scanwatch

It has zero way to monitor sleep status. It is basing any sleep apnea forecasts on oxygen levels in the blood alone.

The app monitors apnea episodes per hour. Is it simply basing that on SPO2?

crave303 wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:46 am

The app monitors apnea episodes per hour. Is it simply basing that on SPO2?

That's what I understood. There's nothing there to monitor sleep at all. It's equating a drop in O2 levels as being associated with an apnea event of some sort. Essentially no different than the pulse ox only home sleep studies used to diagnose sleep apnea.

It can point to a possible sleep apnea issue if someone sees a lot of prolonged drops but isn't (or wouldn't be) a for sure guarantee that there isn't a sleep apnea problem if there were any drops. Not everyone will have significant oxygen level drops with their sleep apnea.
I have a friend that had an in lab sleep study and came out with a diagnosis of over 60 AHI...and she never had any real significant oxygen level drops beyond what we normally see when we sleep.

I saw nothing anywhere on the page that showed where the device had anything in it to monitor actual sleep. Seems to be a pulse rate, heart rate monitor along with oxygen levels. Now does it think it can estimate sleep by pulse rate and movement thing similar to the FitBit Charge 2 device....it might but I didn't see it mentioned anywhere.

It could be a useful tool to confirm that a person's sleep apnea therapy isn't allowing oxygen level drops but I wouldn't rely on it for a diagnostic "you didn't have any O2 drops so you don't have sleep apnea" kind of thing.
At least with the home sleep studies they actually measure air flow which is another indicator of sleep apnea.

The usefulness of the watch device is going to depend on why or what someone is wanting to monitor either the oxygen levels or pulse rate.

I would be concerned that someone thinking they had sleep apnea used the device and thought "oh, no desats so I must not have sleep apnea" just like I am concerned when someone uses just a pulse ox overnight and doesn't have significant desats.

But of course if they used the device and did have significant desats.....alarm bells should go off and a person should investigate further.
My concern is that the absence of desats and no alarm bells going off would lead someone to think they didn't have sleep apnea and not investigate further along those lines and miss an opportunity to get therapy.

As long as someone understands the limitations of any device.....I see no problem in using it if they what to fork over the dollars for the device.

It does look like a nice toy.
I wouldn't mind having one, but I can think of a half dozen other things
more likely to make me want to spend the money.

Thank you Pugsy.

I did have a Withing watch (no pulse ox) that tracked sleep based on movement. It told you on a graph when you were awake, when you were in light sleep, and when you were in deep sleep. Other devices claim to know when you are in REM sleep also.

I think this would be incorporated into the mix to help "detect" sleep apnea with a bespoke algorithm.

Withing also have a sleep apnea mat you put under your mattress which claims to find sleep apnea... !

https://www.withings.com/uk/en/sleep-an ... GwodSP0Bqw

It says... "CLINICALLY VALIDATED Sleep-lab results, at home".

I guess it could draw from whatever technology was in that too. They compared the results this mat gives you to a sleep study (PSG) results and they were supposedly near identical.

crave303 wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:17 am

I did have a Withing watch (no pulse ox) that tracked sleep based on movement. It told you on a graph when you were awake, when you were in light sleep, and when you were in deep sleep. Other devices claim to know when you are in REM sleep also.

I am sorry but just because a person doesn't move or does move isn't a way to measure sleep stage or status.

Believe what you want to believe but it's scientifically not possible. I can lay in one position for a prolonged period of time and not move and a device tell me I slept....and I was wide awake the entire time. I did that with the FitBit I used. Lack of movement doesn't equal sleep. I don't listen to product tests...I do my own tests.

And of course the product manufacturers will tell you that they know what they are doing....do you really think they would tell you something different?

Now independent peer review testing....I might listen to but there's not a lot of it in this area.

I think it is the combination of everything. Heartbeat, movement etc. Not just one factor.

For the mat:

Sleep Analyzer’s sleep apnoea detection capability has been validated through a clinical study with Hôpital Antoine Béclère in France and Hôpital St-Pierre in Belgium. The study compared Sleep Analyzer to a Polysomnography (PSG) analysis, which is performed on patients in sleep clinics, to confirm the mat’s precision to perform diagnostic test of sleep apnoea syndrome to find moderate to severe cases. The clinical study that had 118 patient participants found Sleep Analyzer had similar average Apnea-Hypopnea Index (AHI) results, which measures the severity of sleep, as a PSG. Sleep Analyzer’s average AHI was 32.5 compared to 32.8 by PSG.

https://www.med-technews.com/news/withi ... -analyser/

32.5 vs 32.8 seems close.

Like Pugsy, I'd want to see peer reviewed studies. Self-funded studies have a tendency to find what people want to see.

khauser wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:20 am

Like Pugsy, I'd want to see peer reviewed studies. Self-funded studies have a tendency to find what people want to see.

Plus....anyone quietly wonder why it's not available in the US yet or why if it was so good it simply doesn't replace real PSG studies???

Probably because you and I aren't the only ones who questions self funded studies. Plus a press release news article....yeah, I am going to base my medical care decisions based on a press release....not.

When my FitBit charge told me I was in deep sleep when I know for a fact I was awake (had to let the dog out to go pee) I figured out pretty quickly that they aren't all they are cracked up to be and full of holes.
Fun toys but that's as far as I will go with them. I have better things to spend my money on than something that is nothing but a fun toy.

Well I think the EU is far stricter than the US when it comes to safety. So it isn't that.

Probably special interests keeping it out in the US so the for-profit US health "care" industry can make excess $$$$.