COVID-19 Face covering question

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zonker
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Re: COVID-19 Face covering question

Post by zonker » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:50 pm

babydinosnoreless wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:02 pm



Apples to oranges fallacy Zonker.

Francis Scott Key wrote the song which became our nation anthem. It had nothing to do with the civil war but was about our revolutionary war. His statue was toppled. This is destroying America and what we are. The good the bad and the ugly.

let's try this another way, then.

do you think that francis scott key will no longer be remembered because his statue was toppled?
people say i'm self absorbed.
but that's enough about them.
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zonker
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Re: COVID-19 Face covering question

Post by zonker » Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:19 pm

lrob123 wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:44 pm


I'm getting old and not too happy that I'm living to see the beginning of the climate change disaster and possibly the end of the great American experiment in democracy <snip>
oh! please don't get me wrong in my conversation with baby. this isn't one of those endless liberals vs conservative arguments you see so often online. in fact, it's not an argument at all. i don't do well with those and generally just end up making a prat of myself.

the exception is people who come in here with a fresh account and start shouting the odds. that pisses me off no end.

no, i'm just talking with baby. i have no plan to win her over to my side. and she isn't going to win me over to hers.no grand scheme to suddenly declare victory and leave.

i'm curious as to how she feels and why she feels this way. that's all.

besides, have you seen her signature? most of my liberal friends seem to have forgotten that little gem!
:wink:
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Re: COVID-19 Face covering question

Post by ChicagoGranny » Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:30 pm

babydinosnoreless wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:02 pm
Our statues were not placed by Lee during the civl war. They were erected many years after the fact, long after reconstruction.
It's worse than some think. Check the dates of construction on those Confederate memorials. Most of them were erected during the 1910s. This was a period of rapid expansion of Jim Crow laws, the KKK, lynching of blacks, and other attempts to "hold blacks down." The monuments were built as a symbol of white dominance.

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babydinosnoreless
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Re: COVID-19 Face covering question

Post by babydinosnoreless » Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:31 pm

zonker wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:19 pm
lrob123 wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:44 pm


I'm getting old and not too happy that I'm living to see the beginning of the climate change disaster and possibly the end of the great American experiment in democracy <snip>
oh! please don't get me wrong in my conversation with baby. this isn't one of those endless liberals vs conservative arguments you see so often online. in fact, it's not an argument at all. i don't do well with those and generally just end up making a prat of myself.

the exception is people who come in here with a fresh account and start shouting the odds. that pisses me off no end.

no, i'm just talking with baby. i have no plan to win her over to my side. and she isn't going to win me over to hers.no grand scheme to suddenly declare victory and leave.

i'm curious as to how she feels and why she feels this way. that's all.

besides, have you seen her signature? most of my liberal friends seem to have forgotten that little gem!
:wink:
I don't think its a liberal vrs a conservative debate really. People can be fiscally conservative and morally liberal or morally conservative and fiscally liberal. I think we make a mistake by combining them into two parties. No one person or party can really represent all that a person feels. I think we all frequently hold our nose and vote for the lessor of two evils. Sometimes that choice is extremely repugnant. Its getting harder and harder as both parties seem to me to have moved to the extremes.

As far as forgetting Francis Scott Key, no I don't think it will happen because we removed a statue. I am however sad that we have lost a piece of art created by William Wetmore Story in 1887. Taking them all down legally and putting them into a museum of slave owners seems like it might have been an ok compromise, though I am not sure one museum could hold all the artwork of the many slave holders we had. Where does it stop? John Hancock was a slave owner. Do we put the declaration of independence in a museum of slave owners? Not all the signers were slave owners but a good many of them were.

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Re: COVID-19 Face covering question

Post by lrob123 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:54 pm

babydinosnoreless wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:31 pm

Taking them all down legally and putting them into a museum of slave owners seems like it might have been an ok compromise, though I am not sure one museum could hold all the artwork of the many slave holders we had. Where does it stop? John Hancock was a slave owner. Do we put the declaration of independence in a museum of slave owners? Not all the signers were slave owners but a good many of them were.
There are lots of museums, I'm sure we could find a museum or historical garden for all these Confederate statues. Most every big city has some Confederate statues in their museums and could take a few more. But I'm not going to cry for the statues that get destroyed. It is preferable that the state or local governments quickly move all of them to museums or warehouse them until a museum home is found, but since these governments have dragged their feet on this for decades, ignoring the many requests and complaints, much of the fault is their own if the statues get destroyed by citizens who have run out of patience.

To decide 'where to stop', just take down the monuments or flags that glorify the Confederacy, the ones who wanted to break up the United States. Also move of statues of any 20th century famous segregationists or KKK leaders to museums (people who were most famous for being racist such as George Wallace, rather than some bigoted US presidents). We can leave the founding fathers up, as well as statues of any racist US presidents.

And we should stop building more Confederate monuments, yes that is still happening. According to USA Today, 35 Confederate monuments have been added erected in North Carolina since 2000. Newsweek says "New Confederate Monuments Are Quietly Going Up Across the U.S." https://www.newsweek.com/new-confederat ... -us-690798
One, dedicated in Mitchell County NC in 2011, commemorates 79 men “who died for their freedom and independence’’, not to preserve slavery. https://docsouth.unc.edu/commland/monument/726/

When we teach American history in schools, at least by the high school years we should be teaching the kids the flaws of our founding fathers such as which ones owned slaves. Earlier, by middle school, we should not romanticize our early US history, we need to remind everyone that the Declaration of Independence 'all men are created equal' was just for white landowners, not women, the poor, black people, other minorities, or Native Americans who had very few rights and were treated horribly. We need to teach by middle school the sad truth, that America's great wealth was initially built on the backs of slaves and stealing land from Native Americans.

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Last edited by lrob123 on Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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babydinosnoreless
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Re: COVID-19 Face covering question

Post by babydinosnoreless » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:07 pm

"When we teach American history in schools, at least by the high school years we should be teaching the kids the flaws of our founding fathers such as which ones owned slaves. Earlier, by middle school, we should not romanticize our early US history, we need to remind everyone that the Declaration of Independence 'all men are created equal' was just for white landowners, not women, the poor, black people, other minorities, or Native Americans who had very few rights and were treated horribly. We need to teach by middle school the sad truth, that America's great wealth was initially built on the backs of slaves and stealing land from Native Americans."

I don't know where you went to school, I was taught that. Right here in hard core conservative Arizona. Of course I always enjoyed history and paid attention when many of my fellow classmates were snoozing. Did you know the two men credited with our bill of rights were both slave owners ? (George Mason and James Madison)

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Re: COVID-19 Face covering question

Post by lrob123 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:36 pm

babydinosnoreless wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:07 pm
I don't know where you went to school, I was taught that. Right here in hard core conservative Arizona. Of course I always enjoyed history and paid attention when many of my fellow classmates were snoozing. Did you know the two men credited with our bill of rights were both slave owners ? (George Mason and James Madison)
I went to school in Detroit in the 60's and 70's and after the bussing started, my neighborhood and schools were then mostly black. The school books mostly romanticized our early US history until 8th grade. In high school, I think they mentioned a few sentences about the founding fathers having slaves, but it was glossed over quickly, it might have been a sentence or two in the book. (I still have my 11th grade book, I should go look and see what it says.) Since it was barely mentioned, I wouldn't have been able to tell you in 12th grade which founding fathers owned slaves. OK, even now, I don't remember for some of them and would have to look it up. I doubt they emphasized that Thomas Jefferson owned 200 slaves at the time he wrote "all men are created equal" in the Declaration of Independence and he eventually owned over 700 slaves. (The Dark Side of Thomas Jefferson: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... -35976004/ ). In grade school, they were mostly presented as heroic people. Finally in high school, they talked about the the slaves-rum-sugar triangle trade, but they didn't emphasize how much of the US wealth was built on the backs of slaves. I naively didn't get that, I didn't connect the dots, not until I was in my 30's I think.

The schools I went to completely left out the details about Christopher Columbus' habit of murdering, raping, and enslaving. What the US government and European settlers did to the Native Americans was minimized and sanitized also except for a few incidents such as the trail of tears. I certainly didn't learn in school about the United States' heavy interference in other countries elections and politics and colonialistic control of their natural resources.

I think in the Southern states, some schools still teach that the Civil War was about states' rights, and call it "The War of Northern Aggression". I have a friend from the South whose teachers called it that.

It is easy to get your High School diploma in the US and be oblivious of our history, the worst parts of it anyway.

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Re: COVID-19 Face covering question

Post by lrob123 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:48 pm

Also, I should have mentioned, it is easy to get through school without learning about Confederate monuments. Schools aren't going to teach about something like that so it is easy for people to not know when and why the monuments were erected.

I had written up this summary on this subject for a different forum but will post it here in case anyone is interested.

This summary is based on excerpts and quotes from Wikipedia, bustle.com, history.com, Town and Country Magazine, vox.com, and USA Today:

Most Confederate Monuments Weren't Built Until the Rise of Jim Crow. They largely symbolize a romanticized version of Antebellum racism, not the Civil War dead.
Some can be found in Union states (New York, for example has three, Pennsylvania, four) and at least 22 of them are located in states that didn't even exist during the Civil War.
How can that be possible? Because largely Confederate monuments were built during two key periods of American history: the beginnings of Jim Crow in the 1920s and the civil rights movement in the early 1950s and 1960s.

Most of these monuments did not go up immediately after the war’s end in 1865. During that time, commemorative markers of the Civil War tended to be memorials that mourned soldiers who had died, says Mark Elliott, a history professor at University of North Carolina. "The vast majority of them were built between the 1890s and 1950s, which matches up exactly with the era of Jim Crow segregation, the biggest spike was between 1900 and the 1920s. All of those monuments were there to teach values to people. That’s why they put them in the city squares. That’s why they put them in front of state buildings." Many earlier memorials had instead been placed in cemeteries. The values these monuments stood for, he says, included a “glorification of the cause of the Civil War."

In contrast to the earlier memorials that mourned dead soldiers, these monuments tended to glorify leaders of the Confederacy like General Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, and Stonewall Jackson.

"They were built during a period of racial violence and strong beliefs about Anglo-Saxon supremacy," Karen L. Cox, professor of history at the University of North Carolina said. "The fact that they were placed on the grounds of county and state courthouses was intentional. The message: white men are in charge."

"Tributes to the Confederacy — placing statues, naming streets and other public facilities were part of the Lost Cause ideology that focused on an idyllic era of stately mansions, beautiful women, and gallant Confederate officers," said Charles S. Bullock, a professor of public and international affairs at the University of Georgia.

Many monuments were created by the United Daughters of the Confederacy, which was advancing the spurious idea that the South left the Union and fought the Civil War over states’ rights, not slavery. The UDC had grown out of groups formed after the Civil War by war widows and other white women to give Confederate veterans a decent burial.
But over time they became invested in the white battle against the black vote. To that end, they promoted the "Lost Cause" theory of the war: that it was fought not because of the South’s insistence on slavery, which benefited slaves as much as their masters, but on states’ rights.

Many monuments went up around the time of the infamous 1915 movie "The Birth of a Nation", a 1915 American silent drama film, adapted from the 1905 novel and play The Clansman. The film presents the Ku Klux Klan as a heroic force necessary to preserve American values and a white supremacist social order.

Confederate monuments continue to be built. USA Today notes that 35 Confederate monuments have been erected in North Carolina since 2000.
One, dedicated in Mitchell County in 2011, commemorates 79 men “who died for their freedom and independence." And not for slavery.

Confederate symbolism, particularly the flag, reemerged in US culture as a backlash to the rise of the civil rights movement. In 1956, Georgia redesigned its state flag to include the Confederate battle flag; and in 1962, South Carolina placed the flag atop its capitol building.

Southerners were clear at the time about what they were doing and what the Confederate flag stood for: "It means the Southern cause," Roy Harris, the legendary Georgia politician, said in 1951. "It is becoming … the symbol of the white race and the cause of the white people.”

Since then, the Confederacy’s purpose has been obfuscated in attempts to whitewash an ugly period of US history, framing the Confederate flag and monuments more as symbols of white heritage and states’ rights rather than explicit symbols of racism. And the flag has in some ways become a dog whistle — another example of the sneaky language public officials use to wink to the public about racism while claiming its use as a point of heritage.

The fact that white supremacists, including literal neo-Nazis, are marching onto cities like Charlottesville to defend Confederate monuments shows that this isn’t just some innocent quest to preserve history; there’s a clear racist interest behind much of this too. Such monuments have been embraced or embellished by the right-wing neo-Confederate movement, which calls the Civil War “the War of Southern Independence", advocates Confederate doctrines such as secession and legislative nullification, and longs for the day of white Christian cultural and political dominance.

New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu said "They are not just innocent remembrances of a benign history. These monuments celebrate a fictional, sanitized Confederacy ignoring the death, ignoring the enslavement, ignoring the terror that it actually stood for. They may have been warriors, but in this cause they were not patriots."

-

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Re: COVID-19 Face covering question

Post by palerider » Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:07 pm

And speaking of such things, everyone should watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krfcq5pF8u8

It takes a while, and it's painful, and sickening to watch, but maybe it'll cause a few people to think.

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Re: COVID-19 Face covering question

Post by chunkyfrog » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:05 pm

Does anyone remember the TOPIC of this thread?
Apparently not.

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Re: COVID-19 Face covering question

Post by Pugsy » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:21 pm

chunkyfrog wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:05 pm
Does anyone remember the TOPIC of this thread?
Apparently not.
What? You mean this thread got derailed??? That never happens... :lol: :lol: :lol:

The original question was more than adequately answered. No real need to continue with more of the same answers so people (including myself) went off topic....it's fine. Doesn't matter. People need to vent (including myself) and an already well answered question thread is as good of a place as any to vent and get side railed.

That's why I didn't step in...if the topic is/was well covered already and no other real questions about masks....doesn't hurt anything to go off topic as long as it doesn't devolve into personal attacks and stuff like that. Keep it clean and devoid of personal attacks...and vent all you want to.

Anyone want me to modify the original topic? I can do that easily but I am limited as to space as to what to call it now.
Any ideas???

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Re: COVID-19 Face covering question

Post by jnk... » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:36 pm

Facing the defaced with covered faces? or, Once we cover face coverings we cover what makes us want to cover our faces? or, Maybe it's time we faced the fact that no human actually deserves having his face on a statue? or, . . .
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Re: COVID-19 Face covering question

Post by babydinosnoreless » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:39 pm

chunkyfrog wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:05 pm
Does anyone remember the TOPIC of this thread?
Apparently not.
Sorry froggie. I get it! There are times right now when we all need to disconnect and just shut off news. You probably don't want to be reading about this stuff in cpap threads ! I will try to do better. :)

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Re: COVID-19 Face covering question

Post by jnk... » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:54 pm

Or, What if I'm too unhealthy to wear a mask in a country that's too unhealthy to have statues? . . .
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Re: COVID-19 Face covering question

Post by palerider » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:53 am

jnk... wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:36 pm
Facing the defaced with covered faces? o
Refacing the disgraced with faeces?

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