OT - vaping - cbd's

gv280z wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:56 pm

I thought this thread was asking about using cbd and vape together for the purpose of sleep aid. I'm aware that it's grown legs and gone into vaping in general and use to step down nicotine addiction, which was the original intent when E-Cigs 1st came out and then it became this whole other thing entirely for the cool kids to play with and all that.

It wasn't as a sleep aid. It grew out of a conversation about vaping on another thread. My friends doctor has recommended cbd for pain relief. When someone mentioned vaping in that thread, I asked for info because one of the ways to take cbd is vape. And all these anti-vape articles are concerning. But most are connected to street carts and not medical grade so I was curious if any studies had been done. Lots of pro's and con's but nothing specifically related to cbd's apparently. Some of the cbd stores are even carrying flower that has been tested to be no THC. Its weird. Hopefully something good comes out of all this new cbd craze and they find it really does help some medical conditions.

Dog Slobber wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:19 pm

TropicalDiver wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:04 pm

IMHO, the only correct answer here is we don't understand the relationship. And I would suggest that your conclusions to the contrary likely suffer from confirmation bias.

I responded to those claims, I too didn't cite my sources. You gave the other individual a free pass, didn't ask them to provide any sources, but wanted me to support my claims.

I did.

Since then a few people have made claims about the dangers of vaping. But they're not being asked to support their claims.

Pretty sure I was the first person who asked for sources and it was from them not you.

babydinosnoreless wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:34 pm

Dog Slobber wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:19 pm

TropicalDiver wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:04 pm

IMHO, the only correct answer here is we don't understand the relationship. And I would suggest that your conclusions to the contrary likely suffer from confirmation bias.

I responded to those claims, I too didn't cite my sources. You gave the other individual a free pass, didn't ask them to provide any sources, but wanted me to support my claims.

I did.

Since then a few people have made claims about the dangers of vaping. But they're not being asked to support their claims.

Pretty sure I was the first person who asked for sources and it was from them not you.

It was TropicalDriver, I was referring to.

TropicalDiver wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:31 pm

Dog Slobber wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:15 pm

You need to get your information regarding vaping from actual studies instead of Facebook shares.

With all due respect, you first. Please include cites to reputable peer reviewed journal studies that support your claims.

Even though Julie first made claims about the dangers of vaping, he felt not only should I support my claims, but I should have done so first.

Cripes, I'm the only guy who has linked to peer reviewed articles in this whole discussion. He certainly hasn't.

gv280z wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:56 pm

I thought this thread was asking about using cbd and vape together for the purpose of sleep aid. I'm aware that it's grown legs and gone into vaping in general and use to step down nicotine addiction, which was the original intent when E-Cigs 1st came out and then it became this whole other thing entirely for the cool kids to play with and all that.

The orgional intent of E-Cigs, was to form another profit stream for nicotine sales. Get them coming and going, to the grave! Jim

I live in Washington State. The are several stores within a mile of me and and they all have some level of trained personnel and safe products. If you go in with an issue they offer different products to choose. One has medical personnel. I have no reason to vape.

Islandwoman wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:47 pm

I live in Washington State. The are several stores within a mile of me and and they all have some level of trained personnel and safe products. If you go in with an issue they offer different products to choose. One has medical personnel. I have no reason to vape.

So what cbd do you take ? Oil ? Water soluble ? What did they recommend ?

It usually depends on what your issue is. If you need immediate relief, smoking is fastest, followed by suppositories, then sublingual tinctures. Edibles take the longest to take effect. On the other hand, the faster they take effect, the sooner the effect goes away, and the less overall time they are effective.

For insomnia, the place I went to recommended edibles an hour or two before bedtime, with a 50/50 mix of THC and CBD, and preferred products made from specific strains. Many of the manufacturers here produce and package products for very specific purposes (with names like “deep sleep” for example).

For people that want CBD only, there are similar products, but the people in the stores insist those products are not as effective as blends.

Realistically, there has been little to no real testing done, and no medical claims are allowed, so everything is anecdotal.

It has been stated that I provided no references to peer reviewed studies. For the most part, that is because nearly all of the studies I have reviewed are problematic. There are many hundreds of device/liquid combinations. The way they are extracted can also differ. And the most interesting stuff is observational.

But since you are requesting sources, this article does a decent job of pointing out the research and what we do and don't know. While I found it after I made my prior posts, it does reflect most of my thinking: https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/ ... vs-smoking

Lots of links to lots of (mostly problematic) studies.

In terms of efficacy around quitting, the NEJM article I cited earlier (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1808779 ) is the best at comparing vaping with other NRT. And this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4824380/ talks about other methods.

Now, to some of the links Dog Slobber provided. "The harm reduction, compared to tobacco products is 100 fold." The source provided was: https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcent ... 018-0237-7

Except:
1) That study referenced another study for the results -- it actually did no real analysis.
2) When you go the document cited, that one also fails to provide an actual source of the analysis.
3) Even if you accept the figures cited, it would be a twenty fold comparative difference in relative risk (a 95% reduction) and not the one hundred fold risk cited by DS.
4) More importantly, from the report referenced in the footnote: Vaping poses only a small fraction of the risks of smoking and switching completely from smoking to vaping conveys substantial health benefits over continued smoking. Based on current knowledge, stating that vaping is at least 95% less harmful than smoking remains a good way to communicate the large difference in relative risk unambiguously so that more smokers are encouraged to make the switch from smoking to vaping. It should be noted that this does not mean e-cigarettes are safe. [Emphasis added)

Another study you cite (The Lancet, 2013) on cessation states, "Achievement of abstinence was substantially lower than we anticipated for the power calculation, thus we had insufficient statistical power to conclude superiority of nicotine e-cigarettes to patches or to placebo e-cigarettes." [Emphasis added]

With all due respect, this will be last post on the topic except in response to a specific question.

Hopefully, serious discussion will trigger any necessary research on safety and effectiveness.
Too often the rush to commerce tramples over the important stuff.

TropicalDiver wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:36 pm

But since you are requesting sources, this article does a decent job of pointing out the research and what we do and don't know.

I never asked you to cite sources.

I accept that during conversation, more often than not one simply doesn't have all the data available. Especially on a subject that one hasn't researched for a couple years. And as stated, I pointed out how it wasn't important to you, for anyone to support their claims, including yourself, but me.

With all due respect, this will be last post on the topic except in response to a specific question.

No problem.

News, etc:

https://wkow.com/news/top-stories/2019/ ... ng-vaping/

palerider wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:10 pm

News, etc:

https://wkow.com/news/top-stories/2019/ ... ng-vaping/

Odd how that article doesn't even mention THC. Yet, we know that THC and street cartridges has been huge in this recent epidemic.

Dog Slobber wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:29 am

palerider wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:10 pm

News, etc:

https://wkow.com/news/top-stories/2019/ ... ng-vaping/

Odd how that article doesn't even mention THC. Yet, we know that THC and street cartridges has been huge in this recent epidemic.

*we* don't know anything...

The most that I will admit to thinking is that there've been a rash of reports of people being hospitalized (and now one dead) with fingers being pointed at vaping. The THC/unofficial cartridge thing is something new that I've only seen recently. Maybe I've just been missing that previously, I don't know.

I don't have a horse in this race, I'm just offering news reports when I see them.

palerider wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:04 am

Dog Slobber wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:29 am

palerider wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:10 pm

News, etc:

https://wkow.com/news/top-stories/2019/ ... ng-vaping/

Odd how that article doesn't even mention THC. Yet, we know that THC and street cartridges has been huge in this recent epidemic.

*we* don't know anything...

The most that I will admit to thinking is that there've been a rash of reports of people being hospitalized with fingers being pointed at vaping. The THC/unofficial cartridge thing is something new that I've only seen recently. Maybe I've just been missing that previously, I don't know.

I don't have a horse in this race, I'm just offering news reports when I see them.

*we* *should* know the prevalence of THC in the reports of this mysterious lung disease attributed to vaping.

It has been mentioned many times by myself, I've linked to many articles that mention the prevalence of THC use.

Heck, you even linked to an article that mentioned it:

palerider wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:08 pm

posted today: https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/08 ... c-says/#p3

Following early suspicions, the CDC did note that “n many cases, patients have acknowledged recent use of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC)-containing products while speaking to healthcare personnel or in follow-up interviews by health department staff.” THC is the primary psychoactive ingredient in marijuana.

A 26-year-old Wisconsin man sickened in July told NPR he believed his case was caused by dubious THC-containing vaping liquid he bought off the street. He noted that it looked watered-down and had an off color.

And yes, I agree that we don't know the cause yet.

But the THC relationship or at least that there being more at play than solely vaping is something that the writers and publishers should have known. Their fact checking and commitment to determining truth before publishing is negligent.

This confirms the point I have been making all along; Vaping has been the whipping-boy of the news media for years and all kinds of misinformation has been attributed to it.

Dog Slobber wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:23 am

palerider wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:04 am

Dog Slobber wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:29 am

palerider wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:10 pm

News, etc:

https://wkow.com/news/top-stories/2019/ ... ng-vaping/

Odd how that article doesn't even mention THC. Yet, we know that THC and street cartridges has been huge in this recent epidemic.

*we* don't know anything...

The most that I will admit to thinking is that there've been a rash of reports of people being hospitalized with fingers being pointed at vaping. The THC/unofficial cartridge thing is something new that I've only seen recently. Maybe I've just been missing that previously, I don't know.

I don't have a horse in this race, I'm just offering news reports when I see them.

*we* *should* know the prevalence of THC in the reports of this mysterious lung disease attributed to vaping.

It has been mentioned many times by myself, I've linked to many articles that mention the prevalence of THC use.

*YOU* may know it... I don't.

Dog Slobber wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:23 am

Heck, you even linked to an article that mentioned it:

The fact that I linked to an article that mentioned it doesn't mean that I accept it as fact.

It's still early days, data is being gathered, fingers are being pointed. That doesn't mean that the fingers are being pointed in the right directions.

It may end up that vaping isn't the cause... *I do not know* at this point.

Dog Slobber wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:23 am

This confirms the point I have been making all along; Vaping has been the whipping-boy of the news media for years and all kinds of misinformation has been attributed to it.

I don't see it that way... but then, like I said, I'm not arguing one way or the other, even though it may seem that way, just because I'm posting articles *as I come across them*... I'm not looking for them, they're just showing up in my RSS feeds.