Mea Culpa

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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Offerocker
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Post by Offerocker » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:29 am

Thank you for the very insightful post, DrBandage!
It was most informative to read your perspective.

You said:
"Let it stand or fall, not based on who said it, but what was actually said."
I think this is a core point, and one which we all need to keep in mind.

Your Userid didn't help; maybe some 'expected' more, and as had been said, in different words, we DO expect more from our physicians. Your Userid also identified you as a target for frustrations. (I chose mine as a 'disclaimer', !

You are not alone in having multiple Userids. When "Guest" postings were permitted, everyone could post 'attacks' and retain their anonymity. I am also guilty of that, regret it, and am very lucky that the apology was accepted and the issue tossed over the hill. And it is so ironic, that up to that point, I had posted numerous times that 'attacks" need to be voiced via PMs. We are still learning, regardless of age. We are all in different 'places' at different times.

Even though my internist (nor anyone else) did not identify my apnea for far too long, I need to take responsibility for that also, I did not know of such an ailment, and my verbalized complaints to her were not grouped in one visit, else I'm certain she would have come up with that diagnosis. I DO think the fact that I held my breath, etc., could have been picked up.

There ARE certain members of this forum who we can usually rely on to give us facts. These facts are even questioned, by some that aren't really 'doubting', but have the need to argue, for argument's sake. We try to let those posts die on their own. I know that we are fortunate and grateful for the varied expertise here. Also, those who question without malice are important 'questioners' for us all, for they force further detail by their wanting to know more.

Those of us without medical training continually put 'disclaimers' on our posts, for those who do not 'know us', or are new to this forum. I believe it should be understood that everything IS an OPINION. We all have them, and they can be backed up by individual EXPERIENCES. I could bet that even with all of your schooling, studying, training, that you have found that your years of experience may have altered some of those teachings. I know that my doc continues to learn through her patients. That part is called the 'practice of medicine', something which cannot be taught in schools.

Your 'availability' to us here may be a reason why we feel so free to ask/attack. I haven't attacked you that I know of, but I have others, in disguise (as others have, but that doesn't lessen the error). As you correctly said, it is out of frustration, tiredness, where we happen to be that day, etc. Nature of the beast called "Human Nature". You are wise to recognize that.

Your post gave me additional insight to the medical profession.
I've been with my internist for approximately 15 years; she knows me better than I know myself! Unfortunately, our appts. are now limited to 20 minutes! That means I go in with a list of written questions to save time; she does her very best, and I know for certain that she truly cares about ME as a person, in addition to being a patient. Luckily, I have a choice of who I see in all matters concerning my health, and I rely on her recommendations. They don't always work out, but they're pretty much on the money.

I find it sad, especially here in PA, that physicians's hands are tied in so many ways. My doc doesn't really make that much money, considering the high cost of insurance HERE due to too liberal decisions from lawsuits. She spends untold hours doing things we aren't aware (of). I received a call from my neuro at 7:30 p.m. with results of my MRI and Dexa scan. Why? she doesn't have TIME during office hours.

I need to take up this space to commend the physicians who are dedicated to their patients and their needs. I also need to give thanks to the pharmacists who are so willing and available to provide assistance when asked. I have learned much through their advice and counseling.

Thank you for your insight and honesty.
I have to repeat something here: " Let it stand or fall, not based on who said it, but what was actually said. "
That is something everyone, in or out of this forum needs to continue practicing. Many people don't 'listen' to what has been said or written, but INTERPRET it to mean something else, and react offensively. That's a problem of communication, which again, is "human nature", but it can be learned and changed, if one wants - if they recognize it.

Again, I've written another book.

I agree, we do need more emoticons! "Hugs" is another one we could use!

Thank you, be well, and continue to help us out here.
JohnMudie wrote:Maybe we need bumper stickers which say I got OSA, what do you got?"
John - I really like your idea, but for some of us, our bumpers aren't that large! .
"Scoliosis, Apnea, OCD, ADD, Clinical Depression, Gerd, Hi Cholesterol, Back pain, and husband has PD" I offered to trade ailments with him, but he refused! (due to the apnea) And my offer was out of love, because I know could be in store for him. My "consolation prize is that I probably have the lowest blood pressure of most around. (91/51) Yeah, I was in that movie, "The Walking Dead"
Kathleen

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Post by krousseau » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:55 am

The grumpiness of "bad days/nights" is--for me--coming down to my purpose in life--it is fine that I can stay on my path in good times--the real test is whether or not I can do it in bad times--and in how I respond to "falls"-pick myself up and go on or wallow in my troubles/grumpiness.

Don't know about all you other CPAPer's out there but I want to go to the doc who was first in her/his class-or at least the upper 10%. Then did a residency at a major medical center. And they need to have a great bedside manner too-if they agree with my own assessment it's even better.
.
Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.....Galbraith's Law

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tomjax
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minds

Post by tomjax » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:11 am

Krous-
I am not convinced that brilliant minds make brilliant thinkers.
Go to my 4.0 idiots remark.
Sometimes ones intellect gets in their way in being a human or critical thinking.
I am more comfortable with a doc who has more common sense and the ability to relate.
When I see some of the thinking that goes on in the ivory towers of major universities, I get a bit scared.
They are indoctrinating, not educating.

and keep in mind that fifty percent of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class.
tomjax

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krousseau
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Post by krousseau » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:54 am

tomjax-
Yes I absolutely had that in mind--common sense and intuitiveness when something does not fit the textbook--which is fairly often given we are all individuals with our own respones to illness. The comment was meant tongue in cheek. Having been in the education end of three major universities.....
Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.....Galbraith's Law

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Mea Culpa

Post by Guest » Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:22 am

Kathleen,

Our physician recommended Benecol or Total Control for high cholesterol and it has definitely helped.

I would suggest that you go their websites for further information. Benecol will send you a booklet with some coupons. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Nina

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NightHawkeye
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Post by NightHawkeye » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:15 am

MEA CULPA
Wikipedia definition: "Mea Culpa is a Latin phrase that translates into English as "my fault" "

What a difference a day makes. Yesterday started out sadly for me, not just because of the savage personal attacks of the night before, but also the feeling that this forum was on its way to becoming just another vessel, among thousands, for those in the medical community to dictate their views (or, from their perspective, maybe it's simply enlightening those of us who are not the highly educated, dedicated, and caring professionals they view themselves to be).

. . . and just what was this mea culpa for?
drbandage wrote:I made a decision with that mindset that I now regret. I posted with an assumed name on two occasions. My nom de plume was SleepinPeace on one occasion, and Saleepy on the other.
Why should you apologize for this at all, doc? You're right in believing that arguments should stand on their own merits. As I recall, you attempted to discredit me under an assumed name, but failed. So be it. Let your failed arguments rest in peace. Without an MD or Dr beside your moniker your arguments had few merits and no traction.

Personally, I'd prefer that you continue to post under an assumed moniker. That way, your arguments will stand or fall on their own merits - just the naked truth please. I don't see that you have anything to apologize for.

As for myself, I've never posted as anyone other than who I am. But that's just my preference. I do it as much because it keeps me honest, as anything. I take personal responsibility and the consequences for what I say here.

I also believe in giving credit where credit is due, doc. I had gotten sloppy in my posts. I suppose that's because finding flaws with medical practice these days is like picking low hanging fruit. There's just so much to pick from . . . and I got sloppy. I truly appreciate the fact that you pointed this out to me. I can make better arguments, and I will. Likewise, I hope that you will clean up your act. Hopefully, this board will be the better for it.
-SWS wrote:This board truly is a place to "hash things out" as Bill puts it so well. I personally prefer to hear views hashed out without negative emotions that might impede the exchanging of those contrasting ideas.
Thank you, -SWS. Those are the words I needed to hear this morning.

What a difference a day makes. This board is not my passion in life. My work is, really, and yesterday was an unexpected banner day. What goes around comes around, and there are still just rewards for those who toil. Yesterday, I was fortunate enough to come up with a solution to a complex and challenging problem, which will result in another patent application, and I'm fairly sure that a patent for it will be granted. I feel good . . ., and proud.

Now, having wasted far too much time composing this post, I'm gonna go to work and do what I truly enjoy.

Regards,
Bill

Last edited by NightHawkeye on Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Offerocker
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Post by Offerocker » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:37 am

NightHawkeye wrote:[P.S. to drbandage.
Lighten up, doc. Cut the savage personal attacks. They do your cause no good. They do this board no good.
NightHawkeye: I'm not 'attacking' you, but I perceived that was the doc's implication/intention, via his post.

Time will tell, for those of us who have previously failed; I think the admission was a hard pill to swallow, and I for one don't intend to cause myself that pain again - especially the pain to others.

We can only try to the best of our abilities, and hopefully be "tapped on the shoulder" should we falter unintentionally.

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Last edited by Offerocker on Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offerocker
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Re: Mea Culpa

Post by Offerocker » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:51 am

Anonymous wrote:Kathleen,

Our physician recommended Benecol or Total Control for high cholesterol and it has definitely helped.

I would suggest that you go their websites for further information. Benecol will send you a booklet with some coupons. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Nina
Nina, thanks for those references.

I've been taking ZOCOR (then generic simvastatin) for years, and it has helped keep me within 'range'. My internist is conservative, but/and/or I will ask her about those other, possibly newer medications during my upcoming 3-month checkup, which will be preceeded with a blood draw. She's also put me on 1000 mg B-12. Also, am trying to remember to take multivitamin, which are like HORSE pills (even quartered, for me), but I DID find it in liquid form!

Thank you so much for spotting that, and your interest. I appreciate the info. Hey, coupons would be great too!
Kathleen

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NightHawkeye
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Post by NightHawkeye » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:01 am

Offerocker wrote:NightHawkeye: I'm not 'attacking' you, but I perceived that was the doc's implication/intention, via his post.
Thank you, Kathleen. No offense taken. I have removed the inflammatory remarks from my post.

Regards,
Bill

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Offerocker
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Post by Offerocker » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:09 am

NightHawkeye - What a good guy!

I don't think they were in-FLAME-atory though .
I wish I could do the same, but that other person is dead and off the boards, and hopefully forgotten...oh, how I hope.

Nothing more precious than one's reputation.

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NightHawkeye
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Post by NightHawkeye » Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:21 pm

Offerocker wrote:Nothing more precious than one's reputation.
You're probably right, Kathleen . . ., and for that reason worth defending sometimes.

Regards,
Bill

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Post by -SWS » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:19 pm

NightHawkeye wrote:
-SWS wrote:This board truly is a place to "hash things out" as Bill puts it so well. I personally prefer to hear views hashed out without negative emotions that might impede the exchanging of those contrasting ideas.
Thank you, -SWS. Those are the words I needed to hear this morning.

What a difference a day makes. This board is not my passion in life. My work is, really, and yesterday was an unexpected banner day. What goes around comes around, and there are still just rewards for those who toil. Yesterday, I was fortunate enough to come up with a solution to a complex and challenging problem, which will result in another patent application, and I'm fairly sure that a patent for it will be granted. I feel good . . ., and proud.
Bill, congratulations on your recent professional accomplishments!!

Bill, I think you've figured out much of my own personality-based motivations and a fair deal of my own moderate philosophy by now. When things have settled down a bit, I just may attempt to open a new thread sharing my own views regarding what I think are the inherent exploitations and the ignorant public perceptions of the medical system. As it turns out, my own views of this highly complex social topic are probably somewhere in between drbandage's and yours. Those views of mine probably lean a little more toward drbandage's views, however. Yet I also happen to believe that humanity has historically proven itself to be inherently exploitive in no small way. So there is a great deal of overlapping in my own views and your views as well, Bill.

Why on earth would I start such a potentially volatile thread and share my own thoughts and philosophy in detail? Because I think this issue has been central and recurring on all apnea message boards. I thus think the issue needs to be thoroughly worked through. I also hope that members here have known me long enough to know that my heart is in the right place---even if those members happen to disagree with me. However, the minute that thread begins to show any disrespect among any of the participants, then I am done participating in that thread, and may even take a hiatus to soothe my own disappointment in myself . As long as that thread remains a respectful and courteous exchange of contrasting ideas, then I will literally bear my own soul and thoughts about humanity itself.

I think this issue has come to a head here, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. However, I am adamant that all thoughts, all debate, must stay respectful and "above the belt" in every conceivable manner of discourse---if our various contrasting views are to be intellectually compared versus merely thrashed about. I know I have already repeated this several times, but I will say it again: in such a potentially volatile discussion we would need to be on our very best behavior. Respect of others is important to me.

Is this kind of discourse possible, guys? If not, I will not even bother to open that thread to share my own middle ground credo.

Am I an old idealistic fool?

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Post by NightHawkeye » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:18 pm

-SWS wrote:Bill, I think you've figured out much of my own personality-based motivations . . .
LOL. Actually, I'm not sure I even know what you're talking about, -SWS. .
-SWS wrote: . . . and a fair deal of my own moderate philosophy by now.
Yes, I do understand (and appreciate) your moderate philosophy. In a general sense I presume it is somewhat akin to the eastern philosophy of Karma where maintaining harmony with all around is important. Please correct me if that misses the mark though.
-SWS wrote:When things have settled down a bit, I just may attempt to open a new thread sharing my own views regarding what I think are the inherent exploitations and the ignorant public perceptions of the medical system. As it turns out, my own views of this highly complex social topic are probably somewhere in between drbandage's and yours. Those views of mine probably lean a little more toward drbandage's views, however. Yet I also happen to believe that humanity has historically proven itself to be inherently exploitive in no small way. So there is a great deal of overlapping in my own views and your views as well, Bill.
. . . resisting the urge to comment prematurely . . .
-SWS wrote:I think this issue has come to a head here, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. However, I am adamant that all thoughts, all debate, must stay respectful and "above the belt" in every conceivable manner of discourse---if our various contrasting views are to be intellectually compared versus merely thrashed about. I know I have already repeated this several times, but I will say it again: in such a potentially volatile discussion we would need to be on our very best behavior. Respect of others is important to me.
I believe you when you say that, -SWS. Like you I think such a discussion could be beneficial for all.
-SWS wrote:Is this kind of discourse possible, guys? If not, I will not even bother to open that thread to share my own middle ground credo.
I am willing to be a back seat participant in this discussion if you are willing to take the driver's seat, -SWS. I am fairly certain that I don't have the social acumen to keep from ruffling feathers were I to attempt a more directing role in it.
-SWS wrote:Am I an old idealistic fool?
I hope not.

Regards,
Bill

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Post by neversleeps » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:00 pm

-SWS wrote:When things have settled down a bit, I just may attempt to open a new thread sharing my own views regarding what I think are the inherent exploitations and the ignorant public perceptions of the medical system.

Why on earth would I start such a potentially volatile thread and share my own thoughts and philosophy in detail? Because I think this issue has been central and recurring on all apnea message boards. I thus think the issue needs to be thoroughly worked through.
I highly value your opinion, -SWS, and would love to hear it! Do you anticipate by thoroughly working through this issue as a collective group that the inherent exploitations and ignorant public perceptions of the medical system will change? I have my doubts. Then again, I know for a fact I am an old pessimistic fool. (Respectfully pessimistic!)

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Post by Offerocker » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:02 pm

NightHawkeye wrote:
Offerocker wrote:Nothing more precious than one's reputation.
You're probably right, Kathleen . . ., and for that reason worth defending sometimes.

Regards,
Bill

YOU are absolutely right, Bill!

And I believe we need to defend them if posts get to that point, and post it as such!


I've missed some of the debates, but will try to research and follow them - for my own education, certainly not for any judgements.

I 'think' the 99% of us are pretty much at the point now where we can discuss without any 'below the belts' or personal attacks, which belong via PMs.

I realize it can become difficult, just by virtue of being so intense about a viewpoint, not to get carried away, and make assumptions about a person's INTENT. I'm saying something that's human nature/'factual', not applied to any one person in any way. When we run into a brick wall, it's hard to figure out why it won't move, so there MUST be something wrong with the brick WALL. Also, it comes down to not reading the WORDS! Sometimes we read what we 'think' someone MEANS behind those words. And othertimes, it's because we either know the person, or think we do.

Yeah, a toughie, because that's what/all we have to work with.

Sorta off-subject, but applicable, maybe: hubby & are both came from either a past marriage with a 'nagger', or being brought up not being able to voice opinions, or listening to parents nit-pick. The result was two people who had to LEARN how to discuss things.
New ruling in new household: One person went first, talked without changing the subject, then when done, the other responded without changing the subject...this continues until there's a resolution, which was mostly a misunderstanding. SECOND, BUT MORE IMPORTANT RULE: NEVER, EVER, bring up that/those subjects again...they were resolved, and you had your chance! (much easier on the stomach acid that way too) We learned, and now we're not holding things in, and we're kinder to each other than we'd been treated previously.

I think that's why I don't understand when someone (of late, who shall remain nameless) just plain continually attacks, like a pit bull, and tries to goad _____ into further comebacks, in order to have fuel for further attacks .

Luckily, that has not been the case in discussions mentioned - I would have felt the bites, ...AND you have to laugh at those too-few people, or pity them.

Oh, almost forgot: All of the above is merely, solely MY opinion, from my own remnants of a brain.

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