How to get prescribed Bipap?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
Matt00926
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Re: How to get prescribed Bipap?

Post by Matt00926 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:37 pm

palerider wrote:
The Ti setting (according to the manual I've got) ranges from 0.5 to 3.0, so, is that meaning how long it'll stay at IPAP?
That's much less flexible than the way Resmed does it.
Let's say you're in spontaneous/timed mode, and you have a central apnea or for whatever reason don't trigger an inhalation (or your respiratory rate naturally tries to decrease below the set backup rate), it will force a breath at the set Ti (inspiratory time) and backup rate until you start breathing again spontaneously.

When you're spontaneously breathing, on a Respironics bi-level, the Ti setting is essentially muted/non-existent. There is no guaranteed minimum inspiration time. This is at best annoying and uncomfortable, and at worst problematic, especially for someone like a neuromuscular disease patient. Because their neural inspiratory time is short (because breathing rapid and shallow is a defense mechanism, it lessens the work of breathing on the muscles), they will keep their shallow, rapid breathing pattern while sleeping, causing premature cycling from IPAP to EPAP - which basically results in insufficient inhalations / inadequate gas exchange.

That is why ResMed is smart to highlight the importance of Ti min - on the internet there are so many stories of people having synchrony problems with their machines, which is often due to the aforementioned issues. I actually had some of these issues but SleepyHead is helpful when you zoom in on the flow chart and see the shape of each breath - I slowly adjusted the Ti min/max and Rise time until I stopped seeing inhalations getting cut off and each breath looked more "smooth" like it was in sync with me.
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Re: How to get prescribed Bipap?

Post by palerider » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:38 pm

Matt00926 wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:37 pm
palerider wrote:
The Ti setting (according to the manual I've got) ranges from 0.5 to 3.0, so, is that meaning how long it'll stay at IPAP?
That's much less flexible than the way Resmed does it.
Let's say you're in spontaneous/timed mode, and you have a central apnea or for whatever reason don't trigger an inhalation (or your respiratory rate naturally tries to decrease below the set backup rate), it will force a breath at the set Ti (inspiratory time) and backup rate until you start breathing again spontaneously.

When you're spontaneously breathing, on a Respironics bi-level, the Ti setting is essentially muted/non-existent. There is no guaranteed minimum inspiration time. This is at best annoying and uncomfortable, and at worst problematic, especially for someone like a neuromuscular disease patient. Because their neural inspiratory time is short (because breathing rapid and shallow is a defense mechanism, it lessens the work of breathing on the muscles), they will keep their shallow, rapid breathing pattern while sleeping, causing premature cycling from IPAP to EPAP - which basically results in insufficient inhalations / inadequate gas exchange.

That is why ResMed is smart to highlight the importance of Ti min - on the internet there are so many stories of people having synchrony problems with their machines, which is often due to the aforementioned issues. I actually had some of these issues but SleepyHead is helpful when you zoom in on the flow chart and see the shape of each breath - I slowly adjusted the Ti min/max and Rise time until I stopped seeing inhalations getting cut off and each breath looked more "smooth" like it was in sync with me.
Thanks for this information.

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Re: How to get prescribed Bipap?

Post by jnk... » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:51 pm

The Respironics autobipap that I tried had an irritating "puff" that I found uncomfortable. I would hope I would have eventually adjusted to it, since there was no way to adjust it to me. But I found the ResMed autobilevel fairly easy to make comfortable for me. It felt less mechanical and was highly customizable. Just my experience. And I know other people's mileage varies, since I drive a hybrid.
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TedVPAP
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Re: How to get prescribed Bipap?

Post by TedVPAP » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:10 pm

USMCVet wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:55 am
I have some upcoming appointments soon and plan on asking for a Bipap. I'm trying to come up with some legitimate reasons so I'm hoping some of you can help with that.

I am concerned that my tidal volume is low (on average SH says median is 360) and I am 6' tall. From what I have read Bipap can increase tidal volume.

When I was switched to straight 10cm pressure I had trouble with it at first but my leaks and everything were fine. Now my leaks are worse and I wake up with bad dry mouth from mouth breathing which wasn't an issue before. Would that be considered trouble exhaling against the pressure?

Waiting on official results from latest pulmonary function tests. Original spirometry test showed mild restriction. Had another spirometry with other tests and just know that I was able to inhale more so not sure if that bumps me up to normal or not. So depending on those results it's possible I might have a restrictive issue which could also warrant Bipap.

Anything else I might be missing?

Here is a recent nights data

Thanks

Image
I admit that I am ignorant to your issues as I have not studied this thread. Do not switch to a more complicated machine just because you are not satisfied. Your mouth leaking issue has nothing to do with machine. Mouth leaking becomes an issue as pressure increases.
You said that you are worried about your tidal volume being low. Won't an increase in IPAP increase tidal volume?

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Re: How to get prescribed Bipap?

Post by USMCVet » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:55 pm

TedVPAP wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:10 pm
USMCVet wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:55 am
I have some upcoming appointments soon and plan on asking for a Bipap. I'm trying to come up with some legitimate reasons so I'm hoping some of you can help with that.

I am concerned that my tidal volume is low (on average SH says median is 360) and I am 6' tall. From what I have read Bipap can increase tidal volume.

When I was switched to straight 10cm pressure I had trouble with it at first but my leaks and everything were fine. Now my leaks are worse and I wake up with bad dry mouth from mouth breathing which wasn't an issue before. Would that be considered trouble exhaling against the pressure?

Waiting on official results from latest pulmonary function tests. Original spirometry test showed mild restriction. Had another spirometry with other tests and just know that I was able to inhale more so not sure if that bumps me up to normal or not. So depending on those results it's possible I might have a restrictive issue which could also warrant Bipap.

Anything else I might be missing?

Here is a recent nights data

Thanks

Image
I admit that I am ignorant to your issues as I have not studied this thread. Do not switch to a more complicated machine just because you are not satisfied. Your mouth leaking issue has nothing to do with machine. Mouth leaking becomes an issue as pressure increases.
You said that you are worried about your tidal volume being low. Won't an increase in IPAP increase tidal volume?
From what I have read it will not. When I switched to 10cm I went from tidal volume of roughly 360 to 400 and now back down to 360. Previously I was at 6 to 20 and it rarely went over 8.

CPAP helps oxygenation while Bipap helps tidal volume.

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TedVPAP
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Re: How to get prescribed Bipap?

Post by TedVPAP » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:00 pm

USMCVet wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:55 pm
TedVPAP wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:10 pm
USMCVet wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:55 am
I have some upcoming appointments soon and plan on asking for a Bipap. I'm trying to come up with some legitimate reasons so I'm hoping some of you can help with that.

I am concerned that my tidal volume is low (on average SH says median is 360) and I am 6' tall. From what I have read Bipap can increase tidal volume.

When I was switched to straight 10cm pressure I had trouble with it at first but my leaks and everything were fine. Now my leaks are worse and I wake up with bad dry mouth from mouth breathing which wasn't an issue before. Would that be considered trouble exhaling against the pressure?

Waiting on official results from latest pulmonary function tests. Original spirometry test showed mild restriction. Had another spirometry with other tests and just know that I was able to inhale more so not sure if that bumps me up to normal or not. So depending on those results it's possible I might have a restrictive issue which could also warrant Bipap.

Anything else I might be missing?

Here is a recent nights data

Thanks

Image
I admit that I am ignorant to your issues as I have not studied this thread. Do not switch to a more complicated machine just because you are not satisfied. Your mouth leaking issue has nothing to do with machine. Mouth leaking becomes an issue as pressure increases.
You said that you are worried about your tidal volume being low. Won't an increase in IPAP increase tidal volume?
From what I have read it will not. When I switched to 10cm I went from tidal volume of roughly 360 to 400 and now back down to 360. Previously I was at 6 to 20 and it rarely went over 8.

CPAP helps oxygenation while Bipap helps tidal volume.
How does your tidal volume change when you try CPAP=12?

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Re: How to get prescribed Bipap?

Post by USMCVet » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:28 pm

Don't know yet. I have appointment with new Primary Care doc in beginning of April and plan to ask if I can try and bump it up to help with oxygenation more. I probably won't get instant permission since they will likely be a new Dr to the VA system and not sure of things.

Here is where I read about CPAP vs Bipap for tidal volume.

https://acphospitalist.org/archives/2010/09/tech.htm

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Re: How to get prescribed Bipap?

Post by USMCVet » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:09 pm

USMCVet wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:41 am
Ok back from RT appointment.
He said my mouth breathing could be from dry nasal passage since it's winter. Suggested I change settings . Currently tube heat set at 0 and humidity at 5. Suggested bumping heated tube to 2 and see if that helps.

He said my leaks aren't bad with average leak rate of 35 but admitted sleep centers probably like it better under 25 but my numbers look good so leak doesn't matter.

I saw that he had my results from latest testing so I went to release of information and grabbed copy.

Impression is mild restrictive lung disease. So honestly no idea what that means but think I am probably a bit young for that. Looks like maybe I'm just in the mild category??

I don't know what this stuff means.

Image

Image

For anyone in the future that reads this I have finally figured this stuff out lol.

So I am not just barely in the mild restrictive lung disease category like RT said to me. I am actually in the middle of it. Less then 80 but more then 65 is mild. I am at 72.

My results above indicate the cause is extrinsic meaning not an issue with lungs themselves.

Here is a good link too
https://cardiopulmnaz.weebly.com/pulmon ... tests.html

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Holden4th
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Re: How to get prescribed Bipap?

Post by Holden4th » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:51 am

palerider wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:57 am
Holden4th wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:18 am
I have the the S9 VAuto and needed to adjust the Ti max upwards to stop the machine thinking I was going to exhale well before I was ready to. It made a huge difference when I increased it.
I noticed that a lot of my inhalations were being cut of at the default time, so I bumped up my TiMax too, and I'd noticed sometimes before an apnea when there'd be an attempt to inhale, but the machine wasn't catching it and kicking up to IPAP, so I set trigger to more sensitive... my AHI went down as a result of those two changes. Now it's usually under 0.5.
Holden4th wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:18 am
The only thing I notice is that when I exhale (while awake obviously) I get this 'chuffing' sensation at the end of each breath. I'm not sure what to adjust to get rid of this sensation. A longer Ti minimum doesn't make sense though I could be wrong here.
Perhaps if you could describe the sensation better, cuz I've got no idea what you mean, unless you sound like a steam train :lol: :lol:
I probably do sound like a steam train it's a gentle puff, puff, puff sensation. I can avoid it by making my exhalation softer and ending it sooner. I'm concerned that it's happening while I'm asleep. I'll try making the trigger more sensitive and see what happens.

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Re: How to get prescribed Bipap?

Post by ajack » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:58 pm

palerider wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:56 pm
ajackass wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:32 pm
jnk... wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:48 pm
adjustable Ti and rise time
ResMed dudes" wrote:Inspiratory Time and Trigger and Cycle Sensitivities: ResMed’s S therapy mode includes a number of secondary settings that can be used to fine-tune therapy for your patients. While default values should be appropriate for most patients, these technologies can be used to accommodate their unique needs. TiControl™ provides minimum and maximum inspiratory time limits (TiMin and TiMax settings, respectively) for each breath. TiMin and TiMax can be used to prolong or limit, respectively, the time the device spends at IPAP. Along with Vsync, TiControl can ensure synchronization even in the presence of significant mouth and/or mask leak. Adjustable trigger and cycle sensitivities can be used to optimize synchrony. The device triggers (initiates IPAP) and cycles (initiates EPAP) as it senses changes in patient flow. At higher sensitivity settings, smaller flow changes make it easier for the patient to trigger and cycle the device. -- https://onlinestore.resmed.com/images/p ... 017278.pdf
yes the S mode has ti cycle and rise time, users of the vauto on another forum corrected me, when I suggested changing the Ti and rise time in vauto, they said it wasn't an option and it was fixed.
Why don't you do something *intelligent* for once, and only comment on things you actually have actual knowledge about? cuz, you're still wrong about the capabilities of the vauto.
no problem, show the ti and rise time setting being available in VAUTO mode. a screen shot from a manual will be fine. I don't have the aircurve 10 vauto clinical manual. As said I'm going by vauto users.

This is what I found on the S9 joint clinical manual and states rise time not available in the s9 vauto mode "Rise time adjustment(S, ST and T modes) Rise time sets the time taken for the VPAP to reach IPAP. The greater the rise time value, the longer it takes for pressure to increase from EPAP to IPAP.Patients with a high ventilatory demand may prefer a shorter rise time, while patients who are slow breathers may prefer a longer rise time"

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Last edited by ajack on Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:31 am, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: How to get prescribed Bipap?

Post by ajack » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:13 am

USMCVet wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:54 pm
ajack wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:34 pm
USMCVet wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:03 pm
If I get anything new it will have to be a Dreamstation that much I know for sure.
with the dream station, a good machine for an obstructive/restrictive lung is the AVAPS
So my question is how do I sell them on it? Everything is normal (thankfully) except total lung capacity, Functional reserve capacity and reserve volume. So if I understand it correctly my lungs in simplest form have less air then normal at the end of normal expiration meaning that the lungs themselves (besides total lung capacity) are fine but the relationship of the "tug of war" so to speak between the chest wall and lungs is abnormal.

This is where I'm probably grasping at straws.

I know and have been saying for a while that I breathe shallow. My oxygen both during sleep and during the day at least for a while increased with increased CPAP pressure.

So maybe a Bipap would help based on this.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/ne ... l-capacity
"Functional residual capacity is the volume of air in the lungs after a normal relaxed expiration and is determined by the balance between the tendency of the lungs to recoil inwards and the chest wall to pull outwards.10,33,47,48,60,63 Decreases in functional residual capacity are primarily due to decreases in the outward pull of the chest wall. Changes in chest wall recoil occur over time in people with tetraplegia and are due to patients’ inability to regularly expand the chest wall to large lung volumes (see discussion above).9,33,47–49,60 During periods of acute respiratory illness reductions in functional residual capacity are common and due to underlying lung pathology."

My theory is this..... I do need to increase pressure to help with oxygenation which means a higher EPAP because that's what helps with oxygenation. However because of that I will need a higher IPAP which will help with tidal volume meaning greater expansion of lungs. This coupled with a lot more exercise could help strengthen chest muscles?

Or as always I'm over thinking lol
I really would ignore palerider and the VAUTO suggestion, palerider is up the wrong tree.

There are probably still a few things that can cause what's going on, so you still need to wait for a diagnosis, but it is getting done.
same advice as before, move to a ffm for mouth leaks, what you are doing now isn't working.

for restrictive lung disease
A philips auto bipap with auto volume is the AVAPS, the advantage is you only get the extra pressure for volume when you need it. VAUTO and such don't respond to changes in volume, only apnea. With standard S you get the same pressure support with every breath. Example of just 2 pressures and not the many. if 70% of the night you need ps4 and 30% you need ps10, for an adequate tidal volume/minute vent. In s mode it's ps10 all night, in avaps mode it's ps4 and ps 10 (and everything in between) as needed, it's variable to need.
http://www.saegeling-mt.cz/fileadmin/us ... IntEng.pdf

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Re: How to get prescribed Bipap?

Post by USMCVet » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:58 am

ajack wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:13 am
USMCVet wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:54 pm
ajack wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:34 pm
USMCVet wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:03 pm
If I get anything new it will have to be a Dreamstation that much I know for sure.
with the dream station, a good machine for an obstructive/restrictive lung is the AVAPS
So my question is how do I sell them on it? Everything is normal (thankfully) except total lung capacity, Functional reserve capacity and reserve volume. So if I understand it correctly my lungs in simplest form have less air then normal at the end of normal expiration meaning that the lungs themselves (besides total lung capacity) are fine but the relationship of the "tug of war" so to speak between the chest wall and lungs is abnormal.

This is where I'm probably grasping at straws.

I know and have been saying for a while that I breathe shallow. My oxygen both during sleep and during the day at least for a while increased with increased CPAP pressure.

So maybe a Bipap would help based on this.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/ne ... l-capacity
"Functional residual capacity is the volume of air in the lungs after a normal relaxed expiration and is determined by the balance between the tendency of the lungs to recoil inwards and the chest wall to pull outwards.10,33,47,48,60,63 Decreases in functional residual capacity are primarily due to decreases in the outward pull of the chest wall. Changes in chest wall recoil occur over time in people with tetraplegia and are due to patients’ inability to regularly expand the chest wall to large lung volumes (see discussion above).9,33,47–49,60 During periods of acute respiratory illness reductions in functional residual capacity are common and due to underlying lung pathology."

My theory is this..... I do need to increase pressure to help with oxygenation which means a higher EPAP because that's what helps with oxygenation. However because of that I will need a higher IPAP which will help with tidal volume meaning greater expansion of lungs. This coupled with a lot more exercise could help strengthen chest muscles?

Or as always I'm over thinking lol
I really would ignore palerider and the VAUTO suggestion, palerider is up the wrong tree.

There are probably still a few things that can cause what's going on, so you still need to wait for a diagnosis, but it is getting done.
same advice as before, move to a ffm for mouth leaks, what you are doing now isn't working.

for restrictive lung disease
A philips auto bipap with auto volume is the AVAPS, the advantage is you only get the extra pressure for volume when you need it. VAUTO and such don't respond to changes in volume, only apnea. With standard S you get the same pressure support with every breath. Example of just 2 pressures and not the many. if 70% of the night you need ps4 and 30% you need ps10, for an adequate tidal volume/minute vent. In s mode it's ps10 all night, in avaps mode it's ps4 and ps 10 (and everything in between) as needed, it's variable to need.
http://www.saegeling-mt.cz/fileadmin/us ... IntEng.pdf
As much as I don't like waiting I think your right and it's s good idea to get diagnosed with cause before asking for the Bipap.

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Re: How to get prescribed Bipap?

Post by ajack » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:15 am

There's no harm in asking, you never know they might just titrate you on to an AVAPS. At the moment you only have 'mild restrictive lung disease' as a description, It's not a diagnosis. I think they will want the why, before they do another sleep study and approve a new machine. Just jump up and down if it's an s or st, I've used them and I find avaps/iVAPS is better.
this is last night on the iVAPS, notice everything is all over the place, but the minute vent is almost a straight line
https://i.imgur.com/AwZ7smD.png

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Re: How to get prescribed Bipap?

Post by palerider » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:02 am

ajackass wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:58 pm
no problem, show the ti and rise time setting being available in VAUTO mode. a screen shot from a manual will be fine. I don't have the aircurve 10 vauto clinical manual. As said I'm going by vauto users.
You're the twit that made the allegation, YOU prove that YOU'RE right.

If you can't. then do us all a favor and go back to your drinking... and shut up.
ajackass wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:58 pm
This is what I found on the S9 joint clinical manual and states rise time not available in the s9 vauto mode "Rise time adjustment(S, ST and T modes) Rise time sets the time taken for the VPAP to reach IPAP. The greater the rise time value, the longer it takes for pressure to increase from EPAP to IPAP.Patients with a high ventilatory demand may prefer a shorter rise time, while patients who are slow breathers may prefer a longer rise time"
Rise time is not available when easybreath is on, because easybreath is an automatic rise time. Easybreath is always on when in vauto mode.

This has nothing to do with TiMin/TiMax settings.

Once again, you're ignorant and babbling about things you do not understand.

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Re: How to get prescribed Bipap?

Post by ajack » Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:39 pm

Isn't it funny how abusive you get, have you always had this mental health issue?
You are the one saying it does. How you like to change the story as you go. As said, I was repeating what I was told by the user.

...yet the S9 manual clearly says differently, go figure. who should I believe? The manual and the people using the machine, or you?
Again as I said in the original post, I was told the 10 doesn't have ti and rise time, (the s9 manual only has Ti of the two), which makes sense because the 10 is near enough to a new boxed s9
easybreathe is only available in S mode and auto * qualified. With ST or cpap. there is no tick.
The ramp time isn't available in vauto, there is no tick.
The ramp time isn't available in S mode with the easybreathe, there is a tick which is qualified. as per the manual.
* Only available in VPAP Auto and VPAP S. ** Not available in S mode with Easy-Breathe
Image

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Last edited by ajack on Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.