Doctors vs Internet Information

Sleepless_in_LM · Post by **Sleepless_in_LM** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:58 pm

First, this poll, like most, is useless. Of course Doctors see patients who come in with bad info from the internet. There is a large number of people who mis-understand, don't care about the facts and just want to back up their theories, or can't tell the difference between a good information and bogus information. I am suprised the number wasn't 100%. But I would bet those same docs, if honest, would admit the reverse question is also true: Do you regularly see patients who are well informed from information they gather on the internet? My primary Doc will pull up the internet on his laptop during appointments and printout articles for me, confirm symptoms, etc. He loves the fact that I come in well informed. He also warns me that he has had problems with people getting bad info from the internet. It is out there.

Second, you guys gotta layoff Mattman. He is making observations from his perspective. Disagree if you feel the need, but lets not take every opportunity to take out our bad experiences with DME's on poor Matt .

bookwrm63 · Post by **bookwrm63** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:17 pm

Well said, Sleepless! It seems like everytime someone has a bad experience witha provider, Matt takes the heat. I have been doing alot of reading these last few weeks and have found Matt's comments to be fair, open minded and well thought out. But it seems that there are some out there who lurk in wait of him posting so they can dump on him. Maybe it makes them feel better to vent and that's fine. But vent to the provider who offended you and and as Sleepless said so well, "You guys gotta lay off Matt". Let's try and relax, we're all in this together.

blarg · Post by **blarg** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:56 pm

I'm more on the doctors' side on this one. I'm sure i'm biased (family ties), but there you have it. Gather the info you can, but realize that it's YOU that's going to the doctor and asking for THEIR advice. If you don't want to hear it, don't go. If you know what's wrong with you and aren't willing to listen to what the doc has to say, then why bother? There are bad doctors, so find a good one.

I worked tech support for DirecTV for a while and it used to amaze me. They'd say what's wrong, and I'd start trying to troubleshoot it. So many people were like, "But don't you think it's my dish? Could it be the power cord? I think my receiver is broken..." "I'm sorry ma'am, but a faulty power cord would not cause a searching for satellite signal message. That message means the receiver isn't receiving a signal from the satellite." "Oh, so it's my reciever then." "Actually, if you could, would you mind telling me what's connected on the back of your receiver?" The damn cable isn't even plugged in. Well DUH.

One person I even had to say, "You're the one that called me, and I'd be happy to help, but we've gotta figure out what's wrong before I can fix it." "I WANT A NEW RECEIVER." on and on and on. And those systems are very simple to troubleshoot, I can only imagine a human body. *shudder*

Of course I use the internet to gather info, but people believe way more than they should of what they read online. It takes a reputation and at least some information behind you to publish an article in a journal, or to publish using traditional mediums. I can type anything I want on my webpage with zero proof or backing. I can even photoshop up "proof". Now think what a non-profit paying 5 people like me can do when they have an agenda.

Now they're calling it "cyberchondria".

NightHawkeye · Post by **NightHawkeye** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:03 pm

blarg wrote: . . . "You're the one that called me, and I'd be happy to help, but we've gotta figure out what's wrong before I can fix it." "I WANT A NEW RECEIVER." on and on and on. And those systems are very simple to troubleshoot, I can only imagine a human body. *shudder*

Actually, blarg, I wish more of my physicians had taken your approach. Because my symptoms were not a classic case of anything, the physicians I saw were more likely to diagnose my problems as "nothing wrong", than they were to attempt additional diagnostic procedures to get to the cause of my problems. I had two sleep tests which showed no apnea, and it wasn't until I decided on my own to use an oximeter at home that it became obvious, even to the sleep doc, that I had apnea.

Do people make bad decisions? You bet, and lots of them. The thing about health care decisions though is that the patient is the only one who is highly motivated to make the best decisions about his/her own health. A physician is about as motivated to cure all his patients as the central planners in Russia were to improve the lot of the average Russian.

You can see daily on cpaptalk how motivated folks are to fix their own apnea problems. It seems to me that nearly all of them succeed in doing so. Compare that with the dismal CPAP compliance rate of less than 50% experienced by the patients of sleep docs who get no outside support.

The conclusion seems inescapable to me. What physicians and others don't seem to consider is that when we are solving these complex problems for ourselves, we all go through a learning process. Just watch any newbie to this board over a month or two time span. The amount of knowledge gained is generally staggering by any measure. The physician may start with more information, but that may not mean a lot to a patient who has spent a few months researching his own problems in depth.

Regards,
Bill

air · Post by **air** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:17 pm

I was typing and typing, trying to add my thoughts on this, until i got mad again thinking about doc mistakes i avoided myself. (Plus the fact they get more hostile if i note a true mistake of theirs than if i say a stupid thing)

This made me realise once more how much more important is the right to my own health my life and my mistakes, than any results of misleaded people (even fatal results)
After all, democracy itself is an example of giving more importance to people's misinformation->misknowledge->misjudgement->misvotes->mistakes
than to resulting dangers or resulting effitiency.

And as i usually say: sorry for my english

_______________________________________________________

Now just to lighten up and have some fun, see what i had found online:
a twisted hypocrates oath:

Hippocratic Oath: A Contemporary Version

[1] I swear by Apollo, the Physician, by Asculepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods and goddesses, to keep according to my ability and judgment the following oath:

[2] To consider dear to me as my parents those teachers who taught me this art but did not inform me of the terrible climate in which I would have to apply this skill and never pointed out to me the great difficulty I would have in repaying my student loans or the virtual impossibility of starting a private practice with the current cost of professional liability insurance. Despite this, I shall look after my teacher's children as my own children, but will thoroughly acquaint them with the realities of practice as it is today. I will reveal to any of my offspring who aspire to join our profession the terrible pressures of the practice of medicine today, including professional liability, restricted freedom in the methods of treating illness and the use of hospitals and the prescribing of medications, and the hostile relationship with patients that has developed because of the insidious rationing of health care by DRGs, regulations of health maintenance organizations (HMOs), and so on.

[3] I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and judgments but never violate the rules of Medicare, Medicaid, HMOs, preferred-provider organizations (PPOs, and the like. I will never keep a patient in the hospital longer than the DRG allows or the HMOs and PPOs suggest, regardless of the inconvenience to my patient. I will always use generic drugs, even if I think the proprietary drug is more effective. I will always obtain a second opinion, even if I do not think that one is necessary and the patient does not wish one. I will try to ration the resources spent on my patients in line with federal, state, and insurance-company mandates.

[4] As required by law, I shall share with federal and state agencies, insurance companies, professional review organizations, and the like all strictly confidential information that has come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession. Like any businessman or businesswoman, I will observe all antitrust laws. Should I and my colleagues, with only the most honorable of intentions, meet to set and maintain professional standards or eliminate excessive fees, may the Federal Trade Commissioner suitably punish us for our noble efforts.

[5] If I keep this oath faithfully, may I survive this hostile medical environment long enough to discover an alternative career so that I may enjoy life respected by all people and in all times. But if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.

Slinky · Post by **Slinky** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:06 pm

I will always obtain a second opinion, even if I do not think that one is necessary and the patient does not wish one.

Ha! How many times has an HMO patient PLEADED for a referral to a specialist and been refused by their primary care physician??

Thanks for the chuckle, Air.

My philosophy is "I" am the one paying the bill whether thru insurance or outta pocket, "I" am the one to endure the consequences of any decision, treatment, medication or procedure. Therefore, "I" am the employER seeking the expertise and advice of my doctor who is my educated employEE. Therefore WE will make OUR medical decisions together after comparing notes and options and coming to a MUTUAL agreement and decision. I will respect my doctor's education, training and expertise; in return he/she WILL respect my input and my decision whether to adopt that advice or not.

blarg · Post by **blarg** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:15 am

Whenever we went to my dad first with something and then said we'd talk to mom about it he said, "You want a second opinion? Fine, you're ugly too." with this big silly grin on his face.

opetech47 · Post by **opetech47** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:20 pm

most doctors just read paper work-dont care about people

LinkC · Post by **LinkC** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:15 pm

I'd bet there is FAR more bogus medical information distributed online than by doctors.

At the risk of repeating myself in several topics: If your Dr is SO bad, why on Earth is he still your doctor??? (Ditto for DMEs...)

Breathe Jimbo · Post by **Breathe Jimbo** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:47 pm

I am appalled at how many doctors of various kinds failed to consider that I might have a sleep disorder. I even fell asleep once while one of my doctors was talking to me! My WIFE was the one who first opined that I needed a sleep study. Now, you bet, I am using the internet and online access through my alma matter to read all the relevant studies showing how my sleep apnea ties into my blood pressure, cholesterol, psych, and other issues, so that I can raise intelligent questions about potential changes to medication dosages, etc. as I get more CPAP treatment under my belt and try to lose weight. I am not so much angry at my various doctors as I am amazed at their uniform inability, or unwillingness, to think outside their own specialized boxes. I have no choice but to be the one who transcends their individual specialties because, frankly, they just cannot or will not do it. Thank God for the internet!

BTW, my sleep doc appears pleased that I have become very proactive and taken charge of my care and treatment. The good ones will understand that this will make us far more likely to succeed than if we are merely passive.

Still, I want to hear what they have to say about my ideas (e.g. changing meds or dosages) before I make any major changes. After all, they went to medical school and obtained the relevant doctorate. They know things that I don't ... but they don't know everything.

chunkyfrog · Post by **chunkyfrog** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:59 pm

--sometimes, there's only one doctor in town, in-network, taking new patients or near enough to visit.
We who have choices (and can afford to take them) should consider ourselves fortunate.
I changed doctors once because my woman doctor (!) was unsympathetic to debilitating dysmenorrhea-
-I had fibroids as big as grapefruit, and cramps that made me cry out loud.
Another time, because I noted my elderly doctor was becoming senile.
In a small town, I'd probably be dead.

I like my dentist, but I regularly fell asleep in his chair. While he was drilling!
He could have realized that was a symptom of my OSA,
I intend to educate him, kindly.

Muse-Inc · Post by **Muse-Inc** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:43 pm

Breathe Jimbo wrote:...I am not so much angry at my various doctors as I am amazed at their uniform inability, or unwillingness, to think outside their own specialized boxes...

Or outside their own stereotypes! I have never forgiven my ex-primary for missing my OSA on several visits where he should have considered it but I wasn't an old fat guy. He thought I was a normal-sugar diabetic as an explanation for all my apnea symptoms...huh

Breathe Jimbo wrote:...Still, I want to hear what they have to say about my ideas (e.g. changing meds or dosages) before I make any major changes. After all, they went to medical school and obtained the relevant doctorate. They know things that I don't ... but they don't know everything.

That's my attitude too. They are my medical consultants, not God. I fired my ex-primary and my Endo for failure to explore options and suffering from the God complex -- all too common to medical specialists. Current docs are pretty good to I'd recommend and communicate well amongst 'em all. Like my sleep doc best...smart guy, he listens using his intelligence & expertise to analyze & suggest options.

jonquiljo · Post by **jonquiljo** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:45 pm

LinkC wrote: At the risk of repeating myself in several topics: If your Dr is SO bad, why on Earth is he still your doctor??? (Ditto for DMEs...)

Well, most of the time when your Dr is bad ---- you find out the hard way. It is human nature to want to trust. When you find out the person in whom you entrusted your health has ignored something fatal - you are a bit too late!

You've got to always keep questioning and asking more than one opinion - even use friends if necessary.

xenablue · Post by **xenablue** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:48 am

One thing I learned when Dx'd a T2 diabetic 2yrs ago, is that if you don't take responsibility for your own health, then mistakes can and will be made. Doctors can't know everything about everything, particularly with health problems that can have an incredible variation of symptoms and just as many solutions depending on each individual person.

I am finding this is also true of OSA, even as a few-days-old-newbie. The lab results will tell part of the story, but what might work for one person, may be different for another with the same lab results. Medics don't have the time to 'experiment' and cover all avenues without heavily compromising time away from other patients.

My diabetic and heart medical team are 100% supportive of me wanting to help myself and try different approaches at my suggestion. Should they not, we always discuss the pros and cons and reach an agreeable compromise.

In fact, the reason I am on THIS forum, is because my glucose numbers during the night and on waking are way too high, whereas my daytime and postprandial numbers are pretty much in the non-diabetic range. Funny thing is - my lab results all show that everything is hunky-dory and at first glance I'm doing great, HOWEVER looking at my glucose test numbers (I have every stick test for 2 years on a spreadsheet), there's an issue with night time numbers, which just get absorbed by the average 3-month numbers the lab sees.

This has been an issue all along and despite trying several options, short of insulin, I kept telling my endo that I'm always tired, even though I 'seem' to get enough sleep. As he prefers non-invasive tests and methods wherever possible, he ordered a sleep study.

So, whilst I respect and listen to all of my doctors, I have no problem telling them I disagree or want to try something different, because of research or information I've read on message boards from those who have more experience. It's important not to go to your doctor all gung-ho with new ideas - you need to be able to back them up with research and results.

This has been my experience for what it's worth.

Cheers,
Xena

Madalot · Post by **Madalot** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:17 pm

This is a fairly old thread, but in lieu of some of the stuff happening here in the last week or so, I wanted to make a statement that is relative to THIS thread --

I think MOST people that come here (and other forums of a similar nature) are looking to educate themselves about their condition and treatment, but are are intelligent enough to realize that it takes a balance in order to succeed.

I have asked my doctor about a lot of information I've gotten on this forum. Some of it she agreed with, some of it she didn't. I didn't go to her with an attitude, demanding that we do this or that. I went and asked her questions that she answered. Between the information I got here and talking with my medical team, I have been able to receive reasonably effective treatment for MY not-so normal situation.

But if not for the information I received here, I wouldn't have understood enough to ask the right questions. And I still contend that if not for this forum, I would have suffered longer with a bipap machine that could not recognize my breathing patterns. Because of this forum and my understanding that SOMETHING wasn't right, I was able to provide the information to my medical team and get them to investigate the situation faster than I had not come here to ask for additional help.

How can that be a bad thing? Especially considering I'm getting better therapy and my medical team isn't pissed off. It's a win-win situation and only a fool would try to convince people otherwise.

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