The unmentionable Australian company

I fully expect to regret this, but I am going to go ahead and offer out a perspective on all this.

There are a few things that I think tend to make many of the arguments here and in other circles rather inconclusive.

1) People stating that ResMed is being greedy. They aren't charging anyone anything more for thier items than previously. The extra money from the sale goes to the on-line retailer who has been required to adhere to a minimum price. It's pretty difficult to demonize the company as being greedy when this is considered.

2) The regular statements about ResMed not caring about patients or only being beholden to stockholders. Unless you are sitting on the board of directors of ResMed and were actually involved in the discussions surrounding the minimum price decision these statements can only be conjecture. Statements such as:

patients & customers mean absolutely nothing to them, they only cater to the whores of wall street

and

The fact that ResMed gave in to this pressure and concocted a lie to support their actions shows a lack of character

To me, these sorts of statements only serve to invalidate what could otherwise be a great debate. We simply cannot know what exactly has gone into any companies decisions, especially this one. To state as a fact what has happened can't be true and therefore make everything appear to be clouded with anger rather than logic.

3) With that in mind, there can really be only two choices: You believe the company when they say why they did something or you don't. Myself - I don't see these companies as sitting around rubbing thier hands together and twirling thier handlebar moustaches while cackling and thinking how next to screw someone over. Furthermore, for the company to succeed they MUST act in a fashion that they feels best serves the patients. Why? Because without such actions they will go bankrupt.
Note that there is a very critical distinction there: In a manner they feel best serves the patients.
That means someone is making a judgement call. You may very well disagree with that judgement call. We live in a country where we are all wonderfully free to disagree with someone elses opion.
However, please don't confuse a difference of opinion with the old 'You suck!' mentality.

4) Remember to compare apples to apples. The majority of the internet sales that people are upset about (Specifically - the cost to someone who has no insurance) simply do not compare to a claim that goes through insurance. Online retailers who bill insurance have not changed prices at all. Those charges have always been and always will be higher than a cash sale price. Additionally, remember that an agency that bills Medicare is not able to charge a cash sale customer less than the Medicare allowable.

5) Disagree with it all you like, but there really is an element of fairness in this. Traditional DME companies simply cannot compete with an online retailer due to things beyond their control. Between the licensing and certification requirements and the minimum pricing levels set by Medicare the cost of business is simply exponentially higher. Use the piano example again, except now add in some governement agency that states you HAVE to sell this item for $500.00. How do you compete against someone who is able to sell for $400.00? I don't have an easy answer for that.

6) Just as many people here had dealings with a traditional provider that they didn't like you can bet that there are people who have had similar experiences with online retailers. Logically there HAVE to be both good and bad examples of both types of business. Therefore ResMeds statements that they were concerned about patient care through online providers has to have an element of truth to it. To try and state otherwise just doesn't make sense. Heck, take it to the extreme - maybe off of thier market research just HAPPENED to involve all the bad companies. Sure that aint very likely, but one has to admit that it's possible.

7) Someone once asked and I haven't yet heard an answer to this: The one market segment people seem most concerned about are uninsured patients paying cash over the internet. Who says ResMed (or any manufacturer) has any responsibility to that market segment? Strip aside emotion and compassion here for a moment. Seriously? I'm willing to bet they have donated huge amounts of both money and product to charities (Every company does - this wouldn't be anything unique to them). Even aside from that, why do they owe anything to anyone? Shouldn't the burden be more on the people in the community of said patients? Consider this scenario:
Uninsured patient needs a new mask. Scrapes together the cash and buys the mask from somecpapsite.com. Pays a dirt-cheap price. Mask arrives. Oh no! This mask sizes differently and doesn't quite fit! Damn!
-- Patient is out that money. Sorry man. We've all seen this happen.
*or*
Uninsured patient needs a new mask. Patient trots down to a local provider and looks at masks. Finds one they like and fits. Local provider donates mask to patient since they can't afford to pay.
For myself, I firmly believe charity begins at home. I would MUCH rather see people advocating that the patients should be getting treatment in their own local area rather than trying to put forth the concept that any given manufacturer is required to maintain a low-cost supply chain.

I firmly believe there is a place for both types of businesses in this world. I would never advocate shutting either internet businesses down nor traditional providers. I absolutely believe that they both fill a need. I can't say if I agree with ResMeds decision of not. I've still not decided.

Just wanted to offer one other (yeeesh long winded now heh) opinion is all.

mattman

Mattman, A good read & interesting comments. Don't feel it was long winded, believe me it is a drop in the ocean compared to the length of time the inbred Resmed bashing has been happening at cpaptalk

It is refreshing to have someone make comments that aren't laced with emotive overstatement

If this improved tone continues, we may find more lurkers & watchers willing to offer additional uncluttered perspectives.

Cheers

DSM

Okay, DSM. I have the Resmed S8 Elite. Its a good machine. No complaints EXCEPT I strongly RESENT their policy of not allowing me to purchase their software and Reader. Had I known before accepting the Elite for that reason alone I would NOT have accepted ANY Resmed product.

I would have returned it for a Respironics (most likely Respironics anyway) except that I was able to purchase the Reader and software from someone who still had the items in stock. THAT is how strongly I feel about Resmed's policy!

In the future, ANY Resmed product will be avoided like the plague by me.

[quote="Slinky"]Okay, DSM. I have the Resmed S8 Elite. Its a good machine. No complaints EXCEPT I strongly RESENT their policy of not allowing me to purchase their software and Reader. Had I known before accepting the Elite for that reason alone I would NOT have accepted ANY Resmed product.

I would have returned it for a Respironics (most likely Respironics anyway) except that I was able to purchase the Reader and software from someone who still had the items in stock. THAT is how strongly I feel about Resmed's policy!

In the future, ANY Resmed product will be avoided like the plague by me.

I have an idea ... why not start a ResMed policy bashing forum?

It should be a big hit ... but then someone will undoubtedly start bashing B&M DMEs and ruin it for the new forum.

Oh well .... I suppose it is true that not everyone will be pleased about anything.

Kind'a like ... you can please some of the people all of the time and you can please some of the people some of the time ... but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

mattman wrote:There are a few things that I think tend to make many of the arguments here and in other circles rather inconclusive.

1) People stating that ResMed is being greedy. They aren't charging anyone anything more for thier items than previously. The extra money from the sale goes to the on-line retailer who has been required to adhere to a minimum price. It's pretty difficult to demonize the company as being greedy when this is considered.

Matt, you made some good points; however, the "greed" issue is one that I think does apply in that company's decision to force minimum mandatory pricing on the internet.

No, I've never been in the boardrooms or behind the scenes while the powers-that-be at ResMed make their long range strategic business plans.

I firmly believe that ResMed did (still does) intend for their strike at the internet prices to bring in a LOT more money to ResMed over the long haul. Matt, you know better than most (since you worked for a DME), how competitive the manufacturers are when they send their reps out to push their products to the home health care stores. It makes sense that all the manufacturers are going to cater to their biggest customers -- the bricks and mortar DME stores.

In ResMed's case, I do think they intended this move for one reason and one reason only. To curry favor with, and increase sales to, the bricks and mortar DME's. I think ResMed's eye was, and is, firmly glued on what they think is going to enhance their LONG RANGE bottom line. Getting more and more of the biggest customer base of all (the bricks and mortar DME's) to stock ResMed products. Enhancing ResMed's profits -- LONG RANGE. That's normal operating procedure for any business...try to enhance profits over the LONG TERM.

How a company goes about that is what dismays me with ResMed. I think they chose to go about increasing their sales to brick and mortar DME's with a new sales pitch: "Look how we're fighting on your behalf to nip this lower priced internet selling in the bud. We're doing everything we can to try to make ALL the buyers come to YOU. We're the only manufacturer taking these steps to help increase your local business. Now...how many machines and masks do you need this month?"

In ResMed's case, I think they went over the line by instituting a policy that will hurt people who are struggling to purchase equipment and found more affordable prices on the internet. I think ResMed should have worked on other ways to get more of their stuff into the local home health care stores. Not this way.

Rested Gal is right-- It's all about profits. It won't work in the long run. As we all have seen (books, music, insurance, electronics, Wall St. commissions, etc.) the internet will eventually level the playing field... at least I hope so. What Resmed is doing is just one of the many reasons for the absurd cost of health care in the U.S. As people become more aware of sleep apnea and how common this condition is, pricing will be crucial for profits as volume increases. Don't worry, the insurance companies will be looking for ways to pay LESS as more people take advantage of CPAP therapy. When that happens, Resmed will have a problem if their prices are not competitive.

Rested Gal, I couldn't agree more. Very well said.

dsm wrote:Unfortunately whilst people here are encouraged to keep up the barrage of emotive statements attacking Resmed and to maintain the distortions (even untruths) about Resmed, we are seeing nothing more than yet one more attempt by another Resmed reseller to beat up Resmed yet again because it suits *their* business wants. So who is it who is being greedy/aggressive/demanding etc: this argument goes both ways.

neversleeps wrote:dsm, do I understand you correctly? Are you saying cpap.com is attempting to beat up Resmed? Are you saying cpap.com is being greedy/aggressive/demanding?

dsm wrote:NS,

I was being as cheeky as Wader

D

Oh! So, you were just kidding? That's a relief! I actually thought you were serious about this.

Glad to know you were only joking! (Though, I doubt the Goodmans found it terribly amusing....)

Neversleeps,

The point I was trying to make was that it can be looked at from different angles & what gets seen is often what the looker thinks they can see rather than what is there. Then so often, two people looking the the same view can see it quite differently.

I hope you were able to read what I really think of Johnny Goodman's innovative and outstanding efforts with cpaptalk (in other posts).

In that same light I am certain there are Resmed people who feel proud of what they have designed to make life easier for cpapers.

But when we get to marketing folk, in any org, all bets are off

Cheers

DSM

But when we get to marketing folk, in any org, all bets are off.

Boy! Ain't that the truth! You said it so right, DSM!

(I still "ain't" forgiving Resmed, tho)
Slinky (cpaptalk refuses to recognize me AGAIN)

rested gal wrote:

mattman wrote:There are a few things that I think tend to make many of the arguments here and in other circles rather inconclusive.

1) People stating that ResMed is being greedy. They aren't charging anyone anything more for thier items than previously. The extra money from the sale goes to the on-line retailer who has been required to adhere to a minimum price. It's pretty difficult to demonize the company as being greedy when this is considered.

Matt, you made some good points; however, the "greed" issue is one that I think does apply in that company's decision to force minimum mandatory pricing on the internet.

No, I've never been in the boardrooms or behind the scenes while the powers-that-be at ResMed make their long range strategic business plans.

I firmly believe that ResMed did (still does) intend for their strike at the internet prices to bring in a LOT more money to ResMed over the long haul. Matt, you know better than most (since you worked for a DME), how competitive the manufacturers are when they send their reps out to push their products to the home health care stores. It makes sense that all the manufacturers are going to cater to their biggest customers -- the bricks and mortar DME stores.

In ResMed's case, I do think they intended this move for one reason and one reason only. To curry favor with, and increase sales to, the bricks and mortar DME's. I think ResMed's eye was, and is, firmly glued on what they think is going to enhance their LONG RANGE bottom line. Getting more and more of the biggest customer base of all (the bricks and mortar DME's) to stock ResMed products. Enhancing ResMed's profits -- LONG RANGE. That's normal operating procedure for any business...try to enhance profits over the LONG TERM.

How a company goes about that is what dismays me with ResMed. I think they chose to go about increasing their sales to brick and mortar DME's with a new sales pitch: "Look how we're fighting on your behalf to nip this lower priced internet selling in the bud. We're doing everything we can to try to make ALL the buyers come to YOU. We're the only manufacturer taking these steps to help increase your local business. Now...how many machines and masks do you need this month?"

In ResMed's case, I think they went over the line by instituting a policy that will hurt people who are struggling to purchase equipment and found more affordable prices on the internet. I think ResMed should have worked on other ways to get more of their stuff into the local home health care stores. Not this way.

Well said RG, I think you are exactly right on protecting the dealer front and moves for the long term PROFIT, the latter to appease only Wall Street analysts. If their long term profit making ability doesn't show good promise going forward the price of their stock will suffer no matter how good their EPS is at reporting time. That is why you see so many stock prices fall even when a company reports a good quarter and meets their guidance. They pump up a rosy outlook first of the quarter so investors buy into it then the whores take their profit right before reporting time and leave those unknowing left holding the short stick.

For the most part I don't think many patients that had DME insurance went to the internet sites to purchase equipment anyway. Every person here that said they didn't care had insurance and were getting their equipment from a local DME so it didn't matter what it cost, their price was fixed. About the only patients that purchased online were the patients that were without insurance and/or wanted a mask their DME couldn't get and bill insurance on schedule.

So I see this policy as not only punishing online suppliers but also targeting patients without insurance coverage and/or it directly impacting those patients that can least afford it. Fortunately there are suppliers like cpap.com and others that are taking steps to get us alternative equipment like Somnotech and others.

Resmad has a screw loose if they think I as a patient will go down to a local DME and pay $300 for one of their masks, you would have to be pretty stupid to do that.

I'm pretty confident that other equipment will quickly fill the void left by them.

I haven't seen much about, but if you search out many of the internet suppliers selling Resmad, they were owned and run by local DME suppliers. I don't blame them, if I had a local business I would also put up a online store front if all I had to do was take orders and ship product. I see this as good, because they will only put non-Resmad products on the online storefront which doesn't help Resmad any.

Will be interesting to see how it shapes up a year or two from now, of course I assume by then things will have soured on wallstreet and Peetie will be gone by then.

Insurance companies are finally rebelling against the high prices with Kaiser's action and rumors of machines going OTC. If the latter happens they will have even a more difficult time, OTC may be good for us as prices will surely fall shortly after it happens just like anything else.

I used to get prescription Claritin, my copay with insurance it was $20 with Aetna for 30 tablets or a month's supply. I can now buy the exact same chemical make up in AllerClear and get nearly a year's supply of 300 tablets for about $15 bucks at Costco.

You guys are all crazy. If you don't want to pay the money, buy something else it's simple.

Are you all concerned that other manufacturers will do what ResMed has done? If not, then why are you complaining? There are other products out there so ResMed is not doing anything to stop someone who has a small amount of money from buying a CPAP and mask of another brand.

Are you all concerned because the ResMed products are the best so now you will have to pay more for them?

Lets start a thread complaining that Lambourgini's are too expensive. It's just a car after all, why do they cost so much? What about the poor people out there, Lambourgini should have a responsibility to provide low income earners with a high performance sports car.......

Get over it......

For a newcomer to the forum you are coming on pretty strong, aren't you, Mike2000? Especially since you are so comfortably situated w/your AutoScan software and Reader.

Interesting discussion. Some good points on all sides. I respect all opinions expressed thus far (apart from Mike2000), but I believe rested gal made some astute points I suspect may be closer to the real truth.

Bottom line for me though: If can't buy what I want, from whom I want, then I'm not going to buy it unless I really need it. If I think others are going to be disadvantaged in some way, I might mention my thoughts in passing as well.

My hip pocket nerve gets emotional easily these days and the moths in my wallet are starving...poor things.

But when we get to marketing folk, in any org, all bets are off.

Blame the bean counters, not the marketers.