Oxymeter question

I want to know if an oxymeter can be useful for detecting episodes of apnea. Or not.

I know it detects oxygen concentration. And not carbon dioxide concentration.

Yes

I used to be a cardiopulmonary technician. I want to record my own information before committing to a sleep study.

Yes it can be useful in detecting apnea. It is one tool among many.

If you have concerns about Sleep Apnea and have the ability to be tested in a Sleep Lab it is far far better to be tested there. There are a great many things a Sleep Lab looks at and can much better determine exactly what the problem is.

But barring any other abilities - yes an Overnight Pulse Ox can be a useful tool in screening Sleep Apnea.

I'm looking for something that I can have set off an alarm.

"Oximetry may be a useful screening tool, but in some cases it is not sufficient."

This poster was having no desaturation, yet they had apnea.

So I am aware that this may not be a complete method of self screening.

But it's a start.

I have a Ohmeda 3741 (they sell for under $200 on eBay complete with a probe). I also have a Nellcor N200 but the Ohmeda is so easy to use & extract the data from compared to the N200.

It gives me very good data but I suspect it would be very difficult to make a lot of sense of the data unless you are dropping below 90% regularly.

My charts rarely show anything under 90%
Look at the bottom entries on this web page - (the entries stating PO data included) - the lowest image on each page is data I read off the Ohmeda 3741 & format into Excel charts.

http://www.internetage.com/cpapdata/

BUT, my initial sleep study (early 2005) said my 'nadir' (lowest reading) was 69% !!!.

Cheers & good luck

DSM

After reading some other threads on apnea, I am realizing the sleep study is a hell of a lot more then just breathing and oxygen concentration.

And after two days of absolute hell, and reading testimonies from new members, I think it's time I got into a sleep lab.

I am very stubborn. I also think the causes of apnea are simple. And cpap is nothing more than a bandaid. But I've had several days here where I would much rather be dead than go through this agony of being ill. I feel hungover all of the time. It's a horror. And if a bandaid will help, I'll take it.

And I think my depression and other things are related to apnea. I think...

So even though I posted about oxymeters, I am getting ready to jump into a world of tests.

Gregg wrote:... I also think the causes of apnea are simple.

What do you think are those causes of apnea?

OK, I'm compelled to set the record straight on oximeters here.

All significant apneas will be detected by an oximeter. If an oximeter shows no desaturations, then I doubt that any sleep lab will diagnose you with apnea.

In fact, the very definition of hypopnea requires oximeter desaturation for a hypopnea to be recorded.


Regards,
Bill (Having read here that some Europeans routinely diagnose apnea with an oximeter, I'm just shocked that it has not become commonplace in the U.S.)

Thanks! I was sitting here in a bit of confusion about the apnea/oxymetry relationship. I may still do some quick checking on my own, since I imagine getting into a lab is still months away, in this new day of medicine.


And here are my personal thoughts on apnea. The things that seem to correlate with my body.

I think I have a combination of obstructive and central apnea. I could be completely wrong. But I notice difficulty breathing through swelled sinuses. And I also notice that at night my body tends to lose it's interest in breathing. Plus, I have had a partner tell me I stopped breathing for long periods of time.

I used to play trumpet. When I stopped is when I began to experience the sinus swelling at night. I honestly believe that the hours of high pressures that were placed on my sinuses from trumpet, kept my passages open. And even altered the shape of my sinuses.

And I believe that the central apnea comes from depression. My body has lost interest. The lust for a future is not there. And the body stops breathing.

Just very OUT THERE thoughts.

But one has to admit that apneas are caused by something. Maybe it's different for each person. But I think there is a common cause or causes. And that is what I would like to see addressed, rather than some external device which one must become intimate with for the remainder of their life.

This is also why I've taken ten years to get to a doctor. I tried everything I knew in order to solve this problem. Except picking my horn back up. That came to me last night. Tonight it sits on my table. But it could take years to reshape my sinuses. IF that is even a correct theory.

I know whoever reads this will get a laugh. But I tend to believe there are simple causes to many of our problems. Unfortunately modern medicine has no interest in seeing it that way. But that's another subject.

Gregg,

Don't feel odd. Believe me your description is not uncommon. Sadly there are a few folk here who have in the past made fun of newcomers being open and honest about their observations. But you can only tell it as you see it.

It takes a long time to mould your early descriptions into the jargonese that comes with the respiratory industry.

I do believe a lot of us think we may have both obstructive and central apneas. That thought plagued me for a long time. My wife's observations of the 'stopping breathing' caught my attention just as your's has with you. This doesn't mean we actually have the clinical definition of Central Apnea but it is a possibility.

You may well find that when you go on CPAP you do start to experience Centrals (without this comment implying they aren't already there). The Mayo study says quite clearly that there are people who start off on CPAP then it morphs into Complex Apnea. In their definition for Complex Apnea they state that CPAP does not do the job for these people.

We sometimes talk about 'Pressure induced Centrals' and these do crop up IMHO probably more than is recognized in the CPAP user community.

So join the club, you are not alone & there are people here who won't laugh at any genuine attempt of a newcomer to try to explain their own perceptions. CPAP is a big learning experience.

Good luck in your endeavors

DSM

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Thanks DSM,

I have been following a discussion on what you mentioned regarding central apnea with respect to some relationship with cpap.


It has taken me nearly a decade to get to where I may have a sleep study. Being that I normally feel quite well, and the low frequency of "illness", I just didn't think it was apnea.

I still have to wonder why I only get ill several days out of a two month period.

Hopefully I'll get more answers as I start to spend more time here on this forum.

I have had over 10 sleep studies and have to say that NOT one of them is what I would call a good study. TOO MANY VARIABLES-unless you have central apnea or mixed obstructive/central apnea- then they are of value.

The fact that you are out of your routine setting of sleep with wires etc sticking out and on all over you, a video camera running etc, it is impossible for a sleep lab to measure what actually happens on an average night in your own bed sleeping in your long established room.

I have had apnea for over 20 years in one stae of severity to another. I have had studies that have measured my O2 sat as low as 58%.

I counsel patients everyday in my job and come across patients that fit the criteria for apnea daily as a pharmacist. I have talked before physician groups encouraging them to be more aware of apnea and proper treatment.
BOTTOM LINE: ANY primary care physician can diagnose and treat apnea with a couple of simple tests without refering patients to sleep labs.

1. Have your doctor order a noctural O2 saturation and pluse study.(this is usally provided free with an rx from your doctor by most local home health dealers that sell and service CPAP machine. They will fax him the results within a cuple days.
2. If the O2 study indicates apneic events to a significant amount, at that point the PCP can simply write a prescrition an AutoPap Cpap machine which you can purchase online at CPAP.com or other dealers leaving the setting open and have a smart card that can be read 2 weeks out.

The reason that sleep centers don't want YOU/US using an Auto-Pap is simply because it eliminates their job. In a sleep study your pressure for a traditional CPAP is basically found by using an AutoPap. There are many other perameters measured such as REM sleep, brain waves, restless leg syndrome etc.
My position is that most average sleep apnea patients go undiagnosed or treated by primary care physicians. Secondly a sleep study is NOT necessary to treat a patient that has apnea. All that is need is the O2 study to screen likely patients and an APAP machine with an open setting to get these patients help right away rather than waiting sometimes for months to get into a sleep lab for a study.
My only exception to this is if the doctor suspects Central rather than Obstructive apnea. At that point a sleep study is definitely indicated.

I hope this helps you as much as it has helped several Primary Care Phycians groups that I have spoken to on this topic with their many thanks and updates on apnea. They simply a lot of time are not up to date on apnea or simply overlook it or do not "look" for it as a cause for other major diseases such as high BP, Cardiac, Glucose intolerance/Boarderline Diabetes, Depression, Fatique, etc. Medication reviews are often a major clue that points to apnea patients and this is how I got involved with my crusade to spread the word. Also the fact that I was treated "improrerly" for my apnea for over 10 years due to lack of knowlege on my part as well as my doctor. Good luck to all and I am sure I will get some rather pointed comments and criticism from those of you that are in the Respiratoy business, but remember that the answer to 99 out of 100 questions is money$$$$$$$$.

RUDYRX

Thank you so much for taking time to answer my post.

I just read a thread here with a few folks mentioning apap in lieu of a sleep study. Your post really fits in with my way of thinking.

I actually worked at Stanford hospital many years ago. And recently I've been bending my friend's ears over the crime that high medical costs is. I mean, I can interpret an electrocardiogram in less than one minute. Property values, and inflated costs for exams... But I'm digressing.

Thanks to the posts here, I am confident that I have a direction to pursue.

By the way, I'm in Coos Bay. I saw a neurologist about my "illness", and I am embarrassed to mention his prescription. Although he may be right, in the overall long run, I was infuriated. When I told him of my headaches and depression, he said I should get married and begin a social life. Yes, I'm 50. But I like being single. So this is why I am trying to pursue an alternative path to the typical sleep lab. In several of my last rural locations, the hospitals have eliminated the experienced (expensive) physicians, and imported green doctors. This guy was just settled from Bombay, and even as a neurologist I have to wonder just what where he was coming from when he prescribed marriage. I even had my diary of many years that he could look at. He wasn't even interested.

Ok, I had to vent.

I just want to say one more thing. When I sold a piece of property in Silicon Valley about ten years ago, the guy who bought it was an engineer with Sun Microsystems. He said the forums on the internet would be one of the most valuable things. I didn't even know what he was talking about. But he was right. What a fantastic collection of experiences.

Thanks! I now return you to your forum in progress...

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