Mouth Taping--Consequences?

Hey Laura,

How ya gonna use that aura with one nostril taped? I'm sure you'll think of something. I want pictures.

Brian

Brian

ok, this lab rat survived the night.

I decided to go for all the marbles. A marble up my nose? Nah!

Blocked my left nostril all night with one Fisher & Paykel noseplug (the cheesy ones that come with the Oracle) crammed over the left nasal pillow of my beloved "Headrest" mask (the Aura) and shoved into my left nostril. Right nostril was getting its usual airflow from the Aura. (No pictures, Brian...sowwwwwy. )

Kept the settings on the BiPAP Auto the same as I've been using it for months now: AbFLE mode, EPAP 9, IPAP 16, BiFlex "3".

Went to bed a little after 1 a.m. Mouth taped securely as usual.

Was breathing fine through right nostril alone. Woke up at 6 a.m. having a tad of difficulty getting air through the right nostril which had become semi-stuffy. Could still get air through it, but not comfortably at all.

It was the same kind of non-jolting wakeup I've experienced before while wearing a FF mask when power went off, or wearing other masks with mouth taped and power goes out. Just a stuffy feeling that wakes you and makes you want to take the mask off. Rather than change the conditions for this data gathering, I was awake enough and felt rested enough that I just got up for the day.

Downloaded the SmartCard. The session had been almost 5 hours.

AHI 2.1
That's twice as high as the 1.whatever or just under 1.0 that I usually get. But 2.1 is still very low....well under the "below 5.0" that is considered "normal" AHI.

A jump in leak rate during the last ten minutes or so before I got up in the morning happened when I woke up with the stuffiness and felt pain from the nose plug crammed into my nostril. I spent some time trying to readjust the plug more comfortably before I gave up and got up for the day.

Printout from the recording pulse oximeter. My notes are in italics:
________________________

Low SpO2 -- 89%
At: 02:19:52
that's not the time of day it occurred...that means it was 2 hours and almost 20 seconds into the recording time when that drop occurred. You'll see farther down in the data that the drop to 89% lasted about a tenth of a second...no big deal.

High PR 101 bpm (pulse rate)
Low PR 59 bpm
Average SpO2 -- 94%
90% and above are considered "normal" oxygen levels during sleep.

%Time per SpO2 range:
%SpO2 ---%Time
95-99 ----- 20
90-94 ----79.9
85-89 ----- 0.1
lower range numbers were all 0.0%

Total duration below 90% SpO2:
00:00:12
(a shade over a tenth of a second.)

___________________

A PDF of the Encore Pro file for that blocked nostril night and scan of the oximeter tape are here (the "BA-87EXPERIMENT" files):

http://www.tnlc.com/Lara/laura/osa/EncoreProData

rested gal wrote:Total duration below 90% SpO2:
00:00:12
(a shade over a tenth of a second.)

Actually, that's 12 seconds, RG, a number confirmed by the fact that 0.1% of your total sleep time was spent below 90% SpO2. The time of 2:19 shows that this desat corresponds with the longest apnea displayed in Encore Pro. If you used MyEncore you'd also know how long this longest apnea was - LOL. From the fact that the desat went all the way down to 89% and the fact that Encore Pro is displaying multiple apnea segments together (30 seconds each) I'm guessing that the apnea causing the desaturation was at least 90 seconds long. (Probably more than you wanted to know, huh? Sorry about that.)

Interesting experiment. Thanks for posting, RG.

Regards,
Bill (thinking like a geek)

Geeze, decimal points and I never get along well!

Accurate information is something I always want to know, so thanks very much for the clarification, Bill.

Twelve seconds at 89% is certainly more than a tenth of a second. heh. I'm glad you pointed that out. That's still not long to be barely under 90% when looking at all the hours, so I'll take it and be happy with the 94% average for the night.

birdshell, while I was doing some Googling, I came across this hilarious account of nasal surgery. A starving wolverine, no less!! ROTFL!!!

___________________________

Blogging Under The Influence

Today I am whacked out on pain killers because yesterday I had surgery to correct my deviated septum. I didn’t ask a lot of questions about the procedure but I can deduce most of the details based on the way I feel today. Apparently doctors shove a starving wolverine into one nostril, where it scratches and eats until it hits brain. Then they pull him out by his tail. Nurses stop the bleeding by packing each nostril with a queen size mattress that is carefully wrapped around a wino.

Prior to the surgery, I wasn’t worried, at least until I had an unfortunate nose-related dream. In my dream, the surgery was finished and I was admiring my highly functional nose in the mirror. It processed air perfectly but it looked somehow different. At first I couldn’t put my finger on it. Eventually I noticed: I had one huge nostril where before I had two smaller ones. Call it a uni-nostril if you must.

Now I sit here, my brain half functional, my lower ganglia stinking of wolverine breath, wondering if beneath the bandages I have one nostril or two. In my dream, the uni-nostril looked sleek and modern. The only downside I could think of is that this is exactly the sort of thing that can earn you a nickname for life, such as Nostrildamus or Snout Adams.

And if anyone ever used the phrase “I need that like I need a hole in the head,” I would just tilt up my head, flare my huge nostril and say, “You got that right.” Then I would laugh at my own joke until I snorted an entire sandwich and a bag of chips out of my nose hole.

I really shouldn’t be operating a keyboard. (November 16, 2005)

http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilb ... nder_.html

ROTFL, Laura!!

I have to pass this on to my brother, who actually had the wolverine up his nostril in a medical center AT:

The home of the Wolverines, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan! (GO BLUE)

BTW, the wolverine is the state animal of MI. There are generally no wolverines anywhere in MI, so when one happened to wander into the state, it was HUGE news.

Anyway, I loved it. Thanks.

Old thread, but I thought this was interesting. Just saw the doctor, who was somewhat comically shocked and appalled to actually meet someone who taped. He'd heard of it, and used the fact of it to illustrate people's desperation, but never had anyone admit to it before. After he said, "just don't," he went on to express his opinion that the mouth breathing is a symptom of improper titration. He changed me over to autopap. Worth thinking about.

1. I mouth breath at any pressure attempted. Now I use denture strips.
2. I did regurgitate one night while chin strapped and lip stuck.
I woke up to fire in my chest and of course a sour mouth.
I was really scared for a while convinced that I should go to the ER before the pneumonia arrived. I didn't go and didn't get sick.
I am now more careful about how/what I eat before going to bed.

TerryB

Snoredog wrote:Health professionals are worried about it because they have malpractice insurance, if they told you to tape your mouth and you poked out your eye they would be liable and their insurance rates would go up or be dropped.

Snoredog is right. It is a liabiltiy thing. They know that *some* people might hurt themselves doing it and they don't want it to be a regular thing that people do WITHOUT PAUSE. No one is going to do studies on this because no doctor or researcher who isn't on xpap is going to take it seriously. They expect the suppliers to fill our needs anyway, despite the fact that the suppliers are falling short on this issue.

I, at first, thought taping was absolutely insane. INSANE. But then I found I really didn't have any other choice. I exhausted all the options available and was desperate enough to try it. I found to my surprise that it wasn't as big of a deal as I originally thought.

Tonight I go to bed early and try my new hans rudolph ff. But if it doesn't work, there will be a roll of tape next to my bed.

I understand your anxiety about it. I feel the same way. The only thing we can do is to contact research and development of the different manufactureres and tell them we need a solution for this and even any ideas we might have to freely give them. I did this just last week with resmed as a matter of fact.

jen

cwsanfor:

Hi. You said you used to mouth tape, but now you use a Quatro (full face). Why didn't you use a hybrid? Did you use it and didn't work for you? It's just that I read on this posts they recommend it so much for mouth leakers, but I'm affraid of getting my nostrils sore. So, I can't make up my mind between getting a full face or a hybrid to solve my mouth leaks. Thanks.

John.

John,

I tape with a swift, but I do have a hybrid. I just can't get the blasted thing to stop leaking. I can't get the pillows at the right angle and to get it all strapped on is beyond me. I am sure I will pull it out again when I get a cold but for me taping is so much easier.

I know I am not the person you asked, but I have an answer to your same question.

Hi rested gal:

You seem to know so much about XPAP therapy, I feel like I already admire you. I've read some pretty amazing complete posts you've written.

So I have mouth leaks. I use a Mirage Activa (nasal mask). I use a Respironics RemStar Auto with C-Flex (12-8).

Up until now I've been convinced changing to a full face mask will solve the problem, but then I've read some posts by people implying they still have mouth leaks even using full face masks (hybrids, ff).

I also read that moulth leaks can happen when C-Flex feature isn't enough, a bi level machine or the auto flex feature being better or when your air preassure is too high. I've even read an oral appliance can help this, for it maks room in your upper airway.

I read a post from you explaining the wonders of an auto bipap with b flex. So I filled in the blanks and now I'm considering the possibility of getting this machine.

So, please, would you give me your thoughts on this? According to your experience, do you recommend me to get a full face mask (which one), or to get another machine with a better flex feature (which one)?

I have to clearify now that I use that auto pap with that air preassure range (12-8) because I couldn't tolerate my prescribed cpap preassure (16). So, my doctor took pity on me and we're trying with the auto cpap gradually raising the preassures and see what happens.

I'm not feeling rested yet, but I was by far doing a lot worse with the 16 cpap preassure: aerophagia, a lot more mouth leaks, and I couldn't even fall asleep because the cpap machine didn't have the C-flex feature.

But I think I rambled too much. My concern now is the mouth leaks, which is what's most bothered me. So, I'd really appreciate your opinion/help.

Everyone else's input is also welcome. Thanks.

John.

Thanks for resurrecting this thread. Not only is it interesting and informative, but I can't remember the last time I laughed so hard! Starving wolverine?!?

socknitster wrote:

Snoredog wrote:Health professionals are worried about it because they have malpractice insurance, if they told you to tape your mouth and you poked out your eye they would be liable and their insurance rates would go up or be dropped.

Snoredog is right. It is a liabiltiy thing. They know that *some* people might hurt themselves doing it and they don't want it to be a regular thing that people do WITHOUT PAUSE. No one is going to do studies on this because no doctor or researcher who isn't on xpap is going to take it seriously. They expect the suppliers to fill our needs anyway, despite the fact that the suppliers are falling short on this issue.

I, at first, thought taping was absolutely insane. INSANE. But then I found I really didn't have any other choice. I exhausted all the options available and was desperate enough to try it. I found to my surprise that it wasn't as big of a deal as I originally thought.

Tonight I go to bed early and try my new hans rudolph ff. But if it doesn't work, there will be a roll of tape next to my bed.

I understand your anxiety about it. I feel the same way. The only thing we can do is to contact research and development of the different manufactureres and tell them we need a solution for this and even any ideas we might have to freely give them. I did this just last week with resmed as a matter of fact.

jen