An Open Note regarding Integrity

whatrdreamsmadeof · Post by **whatrdreamsmadeof** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:12 pm

Here ye, hear ye, let it be told thoroughout cpap land that i got my breeze nasal mask from my dme....
even though cpap.com used my critique.......please make them send me some free stuff...........
chuck i'm coming with the water pail (distilled only)......i so totally agree with you........please folks...heed to chuck's advice.......cause i'm gullible and i believe everything(no filter here) thank the cpap god for chuck
and jim you keep me rolling in laughter!!!!!!!!!!!! ellen:roll:

rested gal · Post by **rested gal** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:44 pm

Vader wrote:
Anonymous wrote: Everyone has their opinion about their favorite equipment. The problems seem to arise when someone attempts to put forth their opinion based upon their experience and claims their observations are a matter of fact for everyone. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I agree wholeheartedly.

I second your agreement, Vader. The Guest's statement makes excellent good sense.

Bob... · Post by **Bob...** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Anonymous wrote:In the other thread GoofyUT referred to, dsm implied there are "regulars with vested interests" being paid or given equipment in exchange for favorable reviews.

In the past, Johnny Goodman has generously allowed users to trial equipment for their unbiased reviews. To insinuate otherwise, is, at the very least, inaccurate. To suggest there are "regulars with vested interests" being paid or given equipment in exchange for favorable reviews is not only unsubstantiated, but insults the integrity of Mr. Goodman and cpap.com.

I think we need to be careful not to assume an opposing opinion must be the result of illicit payola. Just because someone is in disagreement with an opinion expressed by an esteemed member of the forum doesn't mean they must be "regulars with vested interests" or guests who are only interested in flaming, being obnoxious and attacking.

GoofyUT, I don't think it's a big surprise we see the slant towards Respironics and away from Resmed -- especially in light of their internet pricing debacle. We're all on the internet and Resmed is gunning for us. It hard to recommend their products with a clear conscience when equally effective products are offered by Respironics. Resmed created their own monster on this one and it has certainly contributed to the "almost monolithic adoration of Respironics." I don't find it worrisome. I find it a healthy by-product of freedom of speech. We are making ourselves heard. There is power in numbers and I'd agree with you; on this forum the numbers indicate Respironics is the preferred manufacturer of equipment. Somebody has to be ahead and it only makes sense the company that's ahead here at cpaptalk isn't the one that has proudly broadcast their intention to screw internet customers while at the same time making the ludicrous claim they are doing so out of concern for the patient. They insult our wallets and our intelligence. On the other hand, for those users who obtain everything through their DME and are blissfully unaware of the internet pricing policy Resmed plans to implement, I'm sure Resmed is viewed in a very positive light. Here, on the internet, it should come as no surprise to see Resmed met with what you describe as "torrents of derision." They brought it on themselves.

I also think we need to be careful when referring to a machine as having a "design flaw." No cpap or apap or bilevel is capable (yet) of being all things to all people. A machine one person finds to be "flawed" with their particular breathing patterns and irregularities is the very machine that works brilliantly for someone else. One man's perceived design flaw is another man's panacea. It would be a shame to steer anyone away from a machine because they misunderstood the pronouncement of "design flaw" to mean the machine cannot work properly.

Everyone has their opinion about their favorite equipment. The problems seem to arise when someone attempts to put forth their opinion based upon their experience and claims their observations are a matter of fact for everyone. Nothing could be further from the truth.

WOW, you sure seemed to push the right buttons for this guy/gal/whoever!

Bob

Moogy · Post by **Moogy** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:19 pm

NightHawkeye wrote:
GoofyUT wrote:WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT DESIGN FLAWS HERE?
Discussion of a particular machine short-coming would be so much more valuable to everyone here. But, as I said, it appears that some here have a vested interest in seeing that does not happen.

In my opinion, NO REGULAR POSTERS (excluding GUESTs) have given us any reason to think they have been "paid off" for endorsements. Such an accusation appears to me to be a desparate attempt to discredit certain regular, helpful posters. Why? I don't know. It is WISE that some of us go to PMs in order to avoid the flame wars.

SOME regular posters (myself included) have responded to some posts that have "proclaimed" Respironics machines are inherently flawed. Those of us who have success with these machines feel an obligation to newcomers to give some balance by posting alternate opinions.

Does this mean that I have been paid off by Respironics. NO! I paid for the machine, both through my 20% copay and and through my astronomically high BCBS premiums.

Do I bad-mouth other brands? No. I don't have experience with them. In fact, I have used ONLY ResMed masks and only one Respironics machine.

It is clear to me that some posters (even those who contribute a lot of good to the forum) need to remember to

Please PLAY NICE!

Continual infighting amoungst our regulars will do nothing but drive away newcomers who need help.

Just my own non-medical, personal opinion,
Moogy

NightHawkeye · Post by **NightHawkeye** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:55 pm

Moogy wrote:In my opinion, NO REGULAR POSTERS (excluding GUESTs) have given us any reason to think they have been "paid off" for endorsements. Such an accusation appears to me to be a desparate attempt to discredit certain regular, helpful posters. Why? I don't know.

Now, Moogy, giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll simply ask you to tell me where I made the accusation you claim I did. I don't recall saying such, only that there are obvious vested interests at work here on this forum. The fact that there are vested interests at work here does not seem to be a disputed fact.

Regards,
Bill

DreamStalker · Post by **DreamStalker** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:57 pm

Vader wrote:
Anonymous wrote: Everyone has their opinion about their favorite equipment. The problems seem to arise when someone attempts to put forth their opinion based upon their experience and claims their observations are a matter of fact for everyone. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I agree wholeheartedly.

Would you mind if I used that as my sig line?

I don't understand the fuss. I have read Vader comment on several posts that the "Activa rules!" or "I kicked the Hybrid to the curb where it belongs" (Please not take offense Vader -- for using you as an example). For him, his experience is fact ... for others it may well be an opinion.

Point is ... we all make statements on this forum that may be contsrued as fact. Does that make us liars with a financial agenda? No ... we are simply attempting to communicate our experiences within a common theme. It is only human nature that we will not always agree with each other's opinion.

I think Chuck was just trying to say that if we are provided free XPAP equipment, we should all have the integrity to state that up front in order to mitigate any perception of a conflict of interest regarding our stated opinions ... what the heck is wrong with that?

- roberto

GoofyUT · Post by **GoofyUT** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:14 pm

Thanks for your note, Roberto.

I'd like to offer one clarification:

I DON'T CARE ABOUT PERCEPTIONS OF IMPROPRIETY OR CONFLICT OF INTEREST!

All that I care about is that I, and my colleagues here are afforded the opportunity to read and consider the UNBIASED impressions of other users of the clinical efficacy of xPAP equipment that they have DIRECT and personal experience with, free from any doubt about possible alterior motives that might infleunce those impressions that are offered to the rest of us.. And, if there are any possible alterior motives, I'd like those to be disclosed UP FRONT, so that I can factor that into my evalutaion of the usefulness of the impressions that I am able to read here.

No, I won't PLAY NICE. This is TOO important. All I want is for we, as a community, to PLAY FAIR.

Chuck

whatrdreamsmadeof · Post by **whatrdreamsmadeof** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:25 pm

here, here, chuck i'm with you, now if anyone wants to give me a remstar with c-flex to use and critique...send it on...........my dme only carries resmed and with all i've heard here i'd love to change.....

Moogy · Post by **Moogy** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:28 pm

Part of playing NICE is playing FAIR. Any I think several posters are not being FAIR to others, by accusing them of ULTERIOR motives and VESTED INTERESTS. If you want to find conspiracies, this board is not the right place.

However, I DO agree that people should disclose any freebies* they have been given or if they work for a certain company, etc. That is also playing nice.

*(I will remind anyone who is concerned about MY biases that I received a free pair of PadACheeks with the express instructions that my review would be unbiased. And I did point out the one very minor problem that I discovered, which the manufacturer then corrected.)

Moogy

Jere · Post by **Jere** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:37 pm

The IDEAL for which GoofyUT is so eloquently defending is a worthy one - I for one would like to believe that all participants on this board are coming solely from their personal experiences and that their opinions are not influenced from anyone with a vested interest.

However, this is a self-policing board and, from a practical point of view, there is very little any one can do to prevent people from posting. We could try to be like Consumer Reports, but then again we would have to stop everyone from posting .

One other observation. I have been on this board for more than a year and in that time I have seen almost a complete turn over in participants. Assuming people are coming in and out of board as their needs require, it would seem that over time a fairly accurate consensus regarding the effectiveness of a product would emerge. That has been my experience, at least, and probably the best anyone can hope for under the circumstances.

NightHawkeye · Post by **NightHawkeye** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:42 pm

Thank you, Moogy. You've made my point so much better than I ever could have.

Moogy wrote:I will remind anyone who is concerned about MY biases that I received a free pair of PadACheeks with the express instructions that my review would be unbiased. And I did point out the one very minor problem that I discovered, which the manufacturer then corrected.

It should be equally possible to point out "minor" design flaws in Respironics equipment on this forum without fear of being flamed, but that is not the case currently.

I have been flamed repeatedly for doing the very thing you did, simply pointing out "minor" design flaws with Respironics machines and the associated Encore Pro software, but doing so is apparently unacceptable for some here. For the most part those flames have come from "Guests", but not in all cases.

I certainly have stated what I like about various Respironics equipment I have used, and I continue to use. In fact, all of my current equipment is Respironics, and yet despite the obvious bias toward Respironics, the mere mention of a "design flaw" has predictable results. And as I also stated previously, there are certain topics regarding Respironics machines, particularly involving runaway pressure, which some here go to great lengths to avoid discussion of.

So, who is it that's not playing fair, Moogy?

Regards,
Bill

Moogy · Post by **Moogy** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:34 pm

I have no problem with people discussing problems they have encountered. I DO have a problem when a post contains global statements about problems (i.e. "Respironics Autos have DESIGN FLAWS," or "ALL DMEs are EVIL") based only on the poster's own experience or on the experience of a few vocal forum members.

The results of experiments with very small sample sizes are not very reliable. It is more accurate and less combative to post (instead) "I had xyz problem. Has anyone encountered this? Is my machine possibly defective, and should I return it to the DME to be checked?"or "XYZ seems to occur for some users, so keep this in mind if you get this unit" or "I had xyz problem every time I used this mask, so I threw it away."

My disagreement has NEVER been with the mention of problems, but with the wording on some of these "problem reports". I cringe when I see global statements along the lines of
"ALL X machines have a design flaw" or
"Bipaps are NEVER needed for people with low pressures" or
"ANYONE who objects to my postings must be in the pocket of some corporation."

(I am not quoting any one person who might or might not have said precisely the above statment/s. This is my impression of the entire thrust of this thread and prior threads, not the words of any one person in any one post.)

Remember that we are all individuals and our experiences vary a great deal. NO ONE, including our regular posters, including ME, can possibly be an expert on what precisely a new cpap-user needs. We need to share information in such a way that new and old cpap-users will find this a pleasant and helpful place to find support AND information, which are of equal importance.

Again, I would BEG all forum members to think about HOW they are criticizing others (people, not products) and remember to treat one another with kindness.

If you disagree with me or with another poster, that is ok, but please do so as friends, not as accusers.

Kindly and in friendship,
Moogy

dllfo · Post by **dllfo** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:53 pm

I agree with Moogy, PLAY NICE !!

We all have opinions. I like Respironics, but don't have a clue about the others. Do my wife and I have "runaway" problems with our Auto BiPAPs?
YES!! It feels like that......BUT I AM SO NEW TO THE SYSTEM, ANY RUNAWAY
PROBLEMS COULD HAVE BEEN INDUCED BY MY IGNORANCE, OR THEY MAY BE A DESIGN FLAW IN THE ALGORITHMS. Don't know, don't care. Results count.

It will take a higher pay grade than mine to know about algorithms, but my waking up refreshed is a no brainer. .

DSM HAS BEEN A HIGH CLASSED, HONEST, RELIABLE GUY IN EVERY ENCOUNTER I HAVE HAD WITH HIM. Wish he lived next door to me. As busy as he is, he has answered every PM I have sent him (PLENTY) about Pulse Oximeters, etc. So has Bill. And Moogy. And RG. And.....so lighten up.

Of course we have sharks swimming with us. Even "Granpa Dave" can see that without his glasses.

I have said it before, no secret...IF you want serious credibility with me, no games, I don't like the guests being able to post.

If you represent Res Med, PLEASE tell me, YOUR credibility went up several notches for honesty and that I can probably believe what you tell me about your products. Same with any company.

I have PMd with a couple of DMEs on this forum and they are first class people with lots to teach us.

I think they are part of the professionals out there who are good DMEs and not to be confused with the part time guys Apria and other large outfits hire.

We are VERY, VERY lucky to have them, and the only reason I don't mention names or anything is that they really are modest guys. In private communications they have given me....the good, the bad and the ugly on each subject I have asked about. Can we ask more??

There is no need to flame anyone on this forum. And I don't see any reason to publicly state you believe they have financial interests that might cloud their judgement. If I truly felt anyone was misleading one of us, I would PM the person being misled, tell them why I felt that way and if that person still wanted to believe everything...FINE. Hey, Shark's have to eat
too.

Meanwhile, I still want to thank the people who spend lots of their time helping us because they are good, decent people...THANK YOU !!

Linda3032 · Post by **Linda3032** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:45 pm

Just got back from my wonderful 6 week RV trip to the Pacific NW, and want to throw in my 2 cents.

I fail to believe that any half-way intelligent person is going to come into a public forum and believe every post they read is "gospel". Most of us have come into this forum to read the "opinions" expressed by others who have "been there and done that".

At that point, we can use some common sense to determine what might or might not work for us.

Naturally some of us come to rely on the opinions of certain people, and other opinions we take with a grain (or a whole box) of salt.

THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM, NOT EINSTEIN UNIVERSITY. Let's not take ourselves or our forum quite so seriously, please.

Moogy · Post by **Moogy** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:02 pm

Linda,

Welcome back! I have been wondering why I hadn't seen you on the forum lately. Hope you had a wonderful RV trip!

Moogy

An Open Note regarding Integrity

honesty only please

Clarification

bias?