Just thinking out loud

NyNurse33 · Post by **NyNurse33** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:53 am

I love my CL2, but for some reason am noticing sometimes that I am mouthbreathing. Now I don't remember doing it that often with the Ultra Mirage II. What's the difference, why do it with one and not the other. I know with the CL2, I am more comfortable sleeping on my side than I was with the UM2 and maybe I tend to mouth breath when on my side. I am sleeping better, b/c I'm not waking up every hour fixing my n mask. The pillows do not leak, but my mouth may be. When I see my MD on the 29th, I am talking to her about upgrading to an elite, so I will be able to tell if I am mouth breathing significantly enough to make the therapy not effective. I know some of you mention the hybrid and it may be a possibility, but not right now ($$). Its bad enough I have 5 brand new masks in my possession and am only really using one. Im just wondering how common is this mouth taping thing? I'm not really worred about the aspiration risk as I am about ripping the tape off every morning. The chin strap won't work, b/c its not like I'm opening up my whole mouth, just parting my lips a little and I don't want anymore things on my face. I've read the posts with the different techniques about taping, so I guess I'll give it a try. I wish this wasn't an issue, if I haven't said it enough, I finally found a mask that I'm in love with and who knows maybe I'm not opening my mouth as much as I think, I mean I feel pretty good, I just have caught myself drooling early in the morning, so I am just guessing. Why do I always first awake @ 4:30 am now? I never did before Weird. Well thanks for letting me vent again.

NyNurse33 · Post by **NyNurse33** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:55 am

Oh and the idea of placing your tongue up against your top teeth was working well when I was using the Ultra Mirage II and mostly laying on my back. I think I just get so comfortable on my side, I'm not keeping it there.

cpapjack · Post by **cpapjack** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:39 am

NyNurse33 wrote:Oh and the idea of placing your tongue up against your top teeth was working well when I was using the Ultra Mirage II and mostly laying on my back. I think I just get so comfortable on my side, I'm not keeping it there.

What I would like to know, is how does one keep their tongue in that position once you fall asleep. I am able to keep it in place when I lay down to fall asleep, but once I'm asleep, I have no control over where my tongue decides to sit in my mouth.

Missy · Post by **Missy** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:14 am

Hi, Melissa-From your posts you sound like a very pro-active patient. You are doing a great job of managing your treatment. First, I have to say that I started out my therapy with the CL2. I love that mask! I am also a side sleeper and find it a very comfortable mask. I found that I was mouth breathing. I tried 3 different chin straps in between taping. I was horrified at the thought of taping my mouth!! I use the Micropore surgical tape. It is like a paper substance. If you use a little chapstick, and roll your lips together and in a little bit, then put the tape on, it comes off relatively easy. Just be sure to fold one end under a little bit so you have a tab to use when removing the tape. If it seems to be stuck on so that you don't want to just remove it, splash a little warm water on the tape, and it should come right off. That being said, I also have a full face mask (F&P 431) that I switch off with. I find it quite comfortable for side sleeping. It just gets to the point for me that one mask isn't feeling oh-so-great, and I switch off. The full face mask is great to have when you have nasal congestion or a cold. I found it really frustrating when I thought I had the mask thing all figured out, then I seemed to take one step forwards, two steps back. But, when you look at how great you feel when you get some quality sleep, it's all worth it. As far as not sleeping as late into the morning, my theory is that you might be getting more restful, quality sleep so when you wake up early, your body might have had enough rest....just a thought. Hope this helps you!

Dawn

NyNurse33 · Post by **NyNurse33** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:58 am

It did help Missy and thank goodness for this site b/c everyone helps. I'm surprised that a ff mask is comfortable sleeping on your side. I will have to broaden my horizons. As far as the tongue, I agree...how can you control what you are doing when you are in a deep sleep. I'm game enough to try the tape. (GULP!) If you don't hear from me tomorrow, that's b/c my mouth is still taped up. I'm afraid my husband might like that too much.

TerryB · Post by **TerryB** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:28 am

Hi Melissa,
Have you read the posts about using the small adhesive strips from Polident? They are about 1/8 wide by 1-1/4 inch long and I brak one in two and place the moistened pieces evenly spaced across my lips. within a few minutes, they have become tacky and the'll hold your lips together until you put a little tension on them while rewetting them with your tongue. I use a homebrew chinstrap in addition to take the main jaw strain and my only leaks are associated with the mask.

Good luck in your research and subsequent plan,

TerryB

rested gal · Post by **rested gal** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:55 am

cpapjack wrote:What I would like to know, is how does one keep their tongue in that position once you fall asleep. I am able to keep it in place when I lay down to fall asleep, but once I'm asleep, I have no control over where my tongue decides to sit in my mouth.

Good question, Jack. Probably depends a lot on the inside geometry of a person's mouth, tongue, normal jaw placement when relaxed. In sleep we have no control over that...the muscles are relaxed and in fact paralyzed in that relaxed state during REM.

Starting out the night with tongue in a sealing position works for a few. They aren't really keeping it there...it's just staying there thanks to their particular mouth/tongue/jaw/dentition architecture. That's also why chin straps work for some people, but not for all. For some, just keeping the jaw up helps keep their tongue in position to maintain a natural airtight seal inside the mouth. But for many of us, air simply will escape around and/or over the tongue, no matter how much the jaw is held up and no matter where the tongue is parked before we go to sleep.

No chin strap, nor any amount of practice with placing the tongue in any sealing position worked for me. Tape or a DIY mouthguard are the only things that let me use masks that I find much more comfortable than any full face mask.

Part of my saga:
Aug 31 2004 subject: Mouth leak training wheels

That was just one topic in a ton of discussions about ways people try to control mouth air leaks without using a FF mask:
Links to: Mouth leaks - Air Leaks - Tape - DIY Guard

bsil · Post by **bsil** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:03 pm

Hi Melissa-
Along with TerryB, I too am a Poligrip strip user. I was concerned about the integrity of the skin on my face, so taping did not appeal to me. For me, the strips work well, just enough adhesive to keep my lips together. In the morning, I peel away what I can, the rest comes off with water.
Also, once you put them on, you can't speak...so I keep a pad/paper by my bedside to answer any questions from kids & spouse.

The only time that I do not use them are when my acid reflux is acting up or if my GI system isn't settled...thus hoping to avoid any aspiration risk.
I also make a point not to eat anything atleast 2 hours before bedtime.
I have found that mouthbreathing really takes away from the effectiveness of my xpap treatment.
Good Luck,
Barb

NyNurse33 · Post by **NyNurse33** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:07 pm

Some really good ideas! I also thought maybe I could get both upper and lower lip pierced and hook them close at night.

OwlCreekObserver · Post by **OwlCreekObserver** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:31 pm

NyNurse33 wrote:Some really good ideas! I also thought maybe I could get both upper and lower lip pierced and hook them close at night.

Well now, there's a thought. I'm thinking about trying staples also.

OCO

GoofyUT · Post by **GoofyUT** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:37 pm

I mean this with no disrespect, but training the tongue to provide an effective mouth seal CAN happen. I have NEVER used a chin-strap, taped my mouth shut or resorted to Poli-Dent strips. I don't use a full-face mask ever (though I did try an HC431A but couldn't tame the leaks, and I do have a UMFF just in case).

However, I've been successful in training myself to breath only through my nose, and as a result, my leak rate on the S8 Vantage avaeraged <0.06L/s with the Swift, and on the REMstar Auto, my average leak rate is around 27L/min, with NO large leaks.

I'm not being boastful. I honestly feel blessed to have been spared many of the travails that so many of my colleagues here have been forced to struggle with. I can't say how I've accomplished this. I honestly have no idea. But now, I can take a drink of water, and even yell at Jumpy, my dog, if I need to with NO air escaping through my mouth while I'm awake, and my data reveals that this continues throughout my now uninterupted 8 hours or so of sleep each night.

I only post this to encourage those who wish to try it, that training yourself to breath only through your nose IS POSSIBLE!

Hope this helps someone.

Chuck

inacpapfog · Post by **inacpapfog** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:16 pm

GoofyUT,
don't you think that your situation might be one of those cases that rested gal refers to in her post. Maybe you are one of the lucky ones to have the ideal sleep architecture in place that allows your mouth/jaw/tongue to maintain that leak-proof alignment throught the night?

GoofyUT · Post by **GoofyUT** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:21 pm

Don't know. But I DO know that I'm awful lucky.

C

birdshell · Post by **birdshell** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:28 pm

NyNurse33 wrote:Some really good ideas! I also thought maybe I could get both upper and lower lip pierced and hook them close at night.

I love that one!

I wanted velcro implants in my head at one point; I figured if there are brave souls with skull implants for their devil horns, velcro implants to hold the headgear straps in place was MUCH more useful!

bdp522 · Post by **bdp522** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:51 pm

Try this link;

MAYBE THIS IS THE SOLUTION!

Just thinking out loud

Just thinking out loud

Tongue training

Lucky

Scathingly Brilliant